2025 OOB Playoff Final AndrewAAGamer (L+51) bs BobbaRossa (X)

[AndrewAAGamer]

I am unable to open the game file.

I am on…

[BobbaRossa]

@AndrewAAGamer

[BobbaRossa]

@AndrewAAGamer Bump #1

[AndrewAAGamer]

This is an invalid bump.

• I responded to your original game save file within 24 hours; well within the 72 hour bump rule telling you I was unable to open the file.

• Until you present me with a file that I am able to open the game has not started, thus, the bump rule does not even apply yet.

Please present to me a game save file I can open. Or, since this bump implies you are not planning on sending me a different save game file, please send me your dice rolling e-mail and I will create a new save game file for you.

Thank you…

[BobbaRossa]

@AndrewAAGamer said in 2025 OOB Playoff Final AndrewAAGamer (L+51) bs BobbaRossa (X):

This is an invalid bump.

• I responded to your original game save file within 24 hours; well within the 72 hour bump rule telling you I was unable to open the file.

• Until you present me with a file that I am able to open the game has not started, thus, the bump rule does not even apply yet.

Please present to me a game save file I can open. Or, since this bump implies you are not planning on sending me a different save game file, please send me your dice rolling e-mail and I will create a new save game file for you.

Thank you…

On the contrary, the rules are quite explicit:
“5b - 72 hour warnings: After 72 hours and there is no game-play post from your opponent (i.e. at least a game decision made), you may post “bump” and the number of the bump (Bump#1, Bump #2, or Bump #3), which creates the “warning”. Do not include any other text so that a bump post is clear.”

A game-play post was made by your opponent that you failed to respond to with “at least a game decision made” within 72 hours.

It is not my fault or concern that you are utilizing an old version of the software when newer versions are readily available. Every game I have played since November has been on this version and have had no issues with anyone else. I am not obliged to cater to your whims beyond what is in the rules, which I am already begrudgingly doing.

The first bump stands.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@BobbaRossa

a) When I received your e-mail showing that you are using 2.7 I checked @Panther posts about the latest stable version. According to his latest post https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/35438/triplea-2-x-new-stable-has-been-released/18 2.6 is stable, assuming you don’t need the lobby feature, 2.7 is not mentioned. I then went to check Triplea on their website and only 2.5 seems to be available. Not sure how you got 2.7 or how to get even 2.6 now as it seems they removed it as neither are stable.

I have referenced @Panther to assist in this. Panther, please confirm what is the latest stable version and please include a link to the proper download. Thank you in advance!

If 2.7 is the latest version then I will load it and use the game file already sent. If not, then either you can load 2.6 and send me a new game file OR just send me your dice rolling e-mail, that I already suggested you send me, and I will create the game file.

b) Since you are unwilling to agree the bump is invalid, even though I have no map to view and told you that within 24 hours, I am asking for a Moderator to give us a decision whether it is valid or not. I will, of course, abide by his decision. @gamerman01

[Panther]

@AndrewAAGamer

What currently is called “stable” is still the outdated version 2.5.22294 from early November 2020. However there have been hundreds of (pre-) releases until today’s version 2.7.15614. There was an attempt by the developers to call a specific version (2.6.whatever) “stable”, but that had been withdrawn (as mentioned by you above).

Be aware that calling “stable” does not mean, that newer versions are “unstable”. On the contrary, those contain a lot of bugfixes and improvements.

I have always recommended to go with a current (pre)-release as long as you don’t need lobby play.

In the TripleA support category I usually publish this link:
https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/releases
where you can download the latest and hundreds of older versions.

Note: At any time during 2.6 development savegame compatibility broke (between older versions and versions starting from this specific one). So I have always recommended that players should use the same (pre-)release version, currently 2.7.whatever. Also they should compare and agree before starting a game. However, there is absolutely no reason to go with any outdated 2.6 version.

So either you go with 2.5.22294 accepting the almost six years old issues - or you agree to go with a current prerelease.

I hope that helps.

[AndrewAAGamer]

Thank you @Panther for a very detailed explanation!

I have downloaded the 2.7 file, thank you for the link!

[AndrewAAGamer]

No scramble in SZ 111.

[gamerman01]

We don’t bump in playoffs, especially finals. I need to add it to the league rules.

A player normally doesn’t have control over the timing of when a playoff game is played (other than the first, in Jan 1), in contrast to a regular league game started up when both players want.

There certainly is the possibility of a time out in a playoff game, but it would be weeks (or repeated longer than 72 hour delays without communication) and solely by moderator call and only if the waiting player wants it.

A game as prestigious as a league playoff final game will not be called over by time out unless there are clearly long delay(s).

[BobbaRossa]

@gamerman01 said in 2025 OOB Playoff Final AndrewAAGamer (L+51) bs BobbaRossa (X):

We don’t bump in playoffs, especially finals. I need to add it to the league rules.

A player normally doesn’t have control over the timing of when a playoff game is played (other than the first, in Jan 1), in contrast to a regular league game started up when both players want.

There certainly is the possibility of a time out in a playoff game, but it would be weeks (or repeated longer than 72 hour delays without communication) and solely by moderator call and only if the waiting player wants it.

A game as prestigious as a league playoff final game will not be called over by time out unless there are clearly long delay(s).

Thank you for the ruling Gamer! I completely agree that bumping an opponent is inappropriate and would never do so unless someone was enforcing exact letter of the law interpretations for a game. Inflexibility defeats the spirit of fun and competitiveness and you ordered us to have fun!!

On that note, since we are changing the rules mid tournament (with my full support!) I would also like to propose a rules amendment allowing free edits of noncombat moves until the opponent has taken a turn as well as walk-in combats unaffected by dice. This has also been the standard of the league since time immemorial (or at least since 2014 when I joined) and raises the level of competition to an appropriate level for a prestigious game. No gain is made by rigidly punishing last second regrets. I have yet to play a live tournament that didn’t have these allowances as well.

[BobbaRossa]

@AndrewAAGamer said in 2025 OOB Playoff Final AndrewAAGamer (L+51) bs BobbaRossa (X):

No scramble in SZ 111.

Submerge orders are needed as well since I do not have a destroyer present.

[gamerman01]

Thanks, and I appreciate several things there,
as for addressing the now controversial rule #9,

---

9 - Order of Play - You may not go back to previous phases/turns of the game and make changes without your opponent’s permission.

---

I carried this rule forward from my predecessor circa 2012 and who knows how many years it went before that. Like other league default rules, it’s definitely a good idea to set actual gamebook rules as the baseline and allow mutual agreement beyond that, otherwise, you’re starting from a new baseline that’s not universal or solid.

In person, if you start moving things in combat movement and then want to change your buy, it seems clear to me that your opponent does not owe you that lenience. Your opponent will probably allow it so that you would allow things like that for them too, but not necessarily.
Likewise, if you are placing your units and then want to change your noncombat you are not playing according to the rules.

Page 12 of the Europe 2nd edition manual details the order of play. Even within phase 1, purchase and repair units, there is a 3 step sequence.
#1 order units
#2 Pay for units and repair damaged units and facilities
#3 Place units in mobilization zone

This is a great example of how each action in A&A is to take place in a strict, certain order.
Another great example is the rule about the order of choosing battles to conduct combat, that is, all Strat bombing first, then amphibious assaults, and lastly general combat. (Page 16) For this rule, if one player follows it and another doesn’t, there is an advantage to the player breaking or being ignorant of the rule.

We play with TripleA on forum. We don’t #1 order units, #2 pay for units and repair damaged units and facilities, and then #3 place units in mobilization zone. We click the units we want to buy and we click done. The digital money is automatically deducted and carried forward. We don’t need to place in a mobilization zone. The program automates some of these steps and the strict step sequence is blurred.

We can save the game file at any time, and reload. So we can technically break the turn sequence rules all the time. US/China/UK goes 3 in a row. As long as there are no dice going to MARTI, any of us can reload a prior save and re-do everything, as many times as desired (ugh, the thought of it. Blasters are so uncivilized). Players can run things in local ad nauseum (ugh again). The only thing that’s live is dice. So basically players go back on a regular basis, all the time.

As we all know, when it comes to following turn order properly in TripleA, there’s only one thing you have to do. Change things before you post.

None of us are used to that, I get it. I’m one of the worst. I ask for edits. Sometimes 2-3 times, with a red face. Sometimes I really hope they haven’t started their turn yet and ask them to accept an edit days after I posted. I send e-mails and texts before I’ve re-read them, and then read them to my satisfaction right after I clicked send. And then send corrected words, with an asterisk. Why? Because I think I don’t make mistakes and I don’t want to take the time to re-read.
So I totally get it.

So with all of these capabilities to go back, to take all kinds of time, to mock up turns (ugh again lol), we have a longstanding practice since forever, like you said, of granting little gimmes and mulligans.

But yet the rules have been there longer than forever, and they serve an important purpose. They eliminate the possibilities of many potentially problematic issues/scenarios. Late edits are annoying. How much grace do you need to give. Etc etc I don’t have time to think up all the scenarios.
There’s not a rule for it but my old nephew used to abuse the undo function. It was really hard to tell what he had moved, unmoved, what he was doing, changed his mind, oh good grief he’s getting an advantage from all this confusion and it was all nice and convenient for him. I’d like to make a rule when playing him. He can use the undo button all he wants IF HE LOADS a previous save and gives me a clean copy. The printed transcript of TripleA is clean, but following it in the game…
Point is clear. Without a baseline rule, which is provided by the rulebook and also happens to make a lot of sense, too many interpretations and liberties can be taken.

So it’s just a habit. Check it over before posting. Sleep on it if the game is really important to you, and come back. But once you post, there’s nothing in the rules that let’s you take it back. It’s the same as if you play chess online and you click the button to make the move. It’s all about the habit we have. I click send on the email and the text because I know I can correct it. If I couldn’t correct it, I’d read it 2-3 times before clicking.

I say all this in a friendly intent as a fellow game enthusiast, and meant to help everyone and to clarify and increase enjoyment for all.

And you know what comes next? I click “submit” and THEN I read my post. Because as a moderator, I can edit it. But someone might read it, then I edit it, then I change it and they don’t know. BAD HABITS! 😂🤣😂🤣

[gamerman01]

And the man needs awooga orders!

[AndrewAAGamer]

@BobbaRossa said in 2025 OOB Playoff Final AndrewAAGamer (L+51) bs BobbaRossa (X):

@AndrewAAGamer said in 2025 OOB Playoff Final AndrewAAGamer (L+51) bs BobbaRossa (X):

No scramble in SZ 111.

Submerge orders are needed as well since I do not have a destroyer present.

Thanks, yeah, I missed that. Please submerge the sub.

[AndrewAAGamer]

Thank you for the ruling @gamerman01 !!!

[BobbaRossa]

@gamerman01 Thank you very much for the detailed reply. I have read and respect your ruling. It triggered a lot of memories and emotions. I think you hit the nail on the head for my issue with this part here:

@gamerman01 said in 2025 OOB Playoff Final AndrewAAGamer (L+51) bs BobbaRossa (X):

How much grace do you need to give.

This is a very important conversation to be had and for me the answer between respectful individuals is never zero. It needs to have a limit somewhere and a dialogue needs to be engaged in, but blanket zero is always disrespectful.

Bringing up your nephew reminded me that the last time I agreed to play a zero tolerance game was actually against Boldfresh (I’m assuming you only have the one nephew who plays A&A :P). It was infuriating for me and, even though I don’t often ask for edits, the defined lack of grace and respect chafed constantly and led to many more errors than I would typically expect to make. That is the only game I have ever conceded while in the balance (though I think it got annulled since we were still on turn 1) and I’ve made sure never to play in that environment again. It is the antithesis of fun for me to constantly marinate in hostility.

Seeing what @oysteilo went through gave me a tremendous amount of pause, but I thought I might be willing to put up with it this time. I was wrong. These discussions have solidified for me that this is not a way in which I wish to spend my time and energy. I will hereby formally withdraw from the tournament. My apologies for wasting your time.

[gamerman01]

It wasn’t a waste of time, though it did take awhile since I wanted to be clear and fair.

And thank you for your thoughtful reply and respect and restraint.

League playoffs have this risk, and they always have. You are playing someone you didn’t choose to play. Any disagreements, from bid rules to common variations are dictated by league rules. Every single time.

There was a year or two when the balanced mod was gaining steam and OOB and BM coexisted in the same standings. OOB was quickly becoming a minority. But if you were in the playoffs with someone who actually insisted on OOB, well, all your BM skills and experience were forfeit and you had to play OOB because it is the default.

Again, league playoffs always have the possibility of different expectations, practices, and preferences between two players colliding. There has to be a league default that settles it before the game even starts. Again, thank you very much and I’m glad someone else shared the pains of playing Boldfresh.