OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51)

[gamerman01]

I want to be at the 10,000 foot level/view on this for you guys. You should be having a great time together, but it’s understandable to an outsider like me pretty much what’s at issue. By understandable, I think it’s pretty clear what’s at issue and I can sympathize with either of you when I put myself in your chair as a game player.

Here’s what I see.

@AndrewAAGamer said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Recap of Edit Policy agreed to in PM Chat:

This tells me Oysteilo had PM chat with Andrew and that an agreement as to edits had taken place in PM. If it hadn’t, I’m sure Oysteilo would have posted here that that was not true, at game outset. Regardless,

Since this is a playoff game there will be no asking for or allowing of any edits of any kind unless required due to TripleA inaccuracies. Once a Phase of a Turn is completed there is no going back to make any edits to that, or an earlier, completed phase.

This is default league rule, Andrew just wished to make it clear in the thread that the league rule would be enforced because the gimmes are routinely granted otherwise. League default rules are commonly bypassed by mutual agreement when it comes to noncombat moves and then place units and collect income, but that is a bypass that is agreed to by both players

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9 - Order of Play - You may not go back to previous phases/turns of the game and make changes without your opponent’s permission.

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Andrew was interested in playing with the actual league default rules and made it clear that that was what he wished to do, without demanding/requiring it. He did this before the game started.
Oysteilo clearly didn’t really like the idea, but in my view he explicitly agreed. Twice. There are mixed messages in his reply, but in my view it is definitely agreement.

And with the rule of no going back and editing being a default league rule, it takes both to agree that it will NOT be followed. So even if one player disagrees about playing the rule of no late edits, one player insisting on playing the default league rule is all it takes to force the default league rule. That is, it takes mutual agreement to go outside a default league rule. But in fact, Oysteilo caved and agreed.

Posting of a non-completed phase, to be completed later is allowable.

Some examples of things to double check, before completing a Phase are, a) did I unload my transports, b) did I move all my attacking units into the correct battle, c) did I bomb or attack where I was supposed to, d) did I move all my units I intended to, e) did I buy the units I intended to buy and f) did I place all my units.

[gamerman01]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Just to get this right, this is not something we have agreed upon, this is a dictate from AndrewAAGamer.

Andrew did not make up the rule.

I believe he is in his right to demand this and hence it is ok,

In my view this is consent, even though consent wasn’t technically required.

but it is not something I have agreed to. It also means if one unit was not moved during combat or during non combat and new units are placed and/or income collected that unit can not be edited even though nothing has happened.

Of course this goes both ways so it is what it is

I think this is also consent, not that it was required. But I don’t think Oysteilo can say he never agreed to it, because in my understanding this post says “yes” twice, though it is clearly hesitant and clearly unwelcome.

[oysteilo]

just to get this clear for a slow norwegian. Andrews edit is 100% ok and is within league (and andrews) rules

[gamerman01]

I don’t see in this game thread nor in the save file where a German sub was edited or that the edit was discussed. Maybe it was by PM. Assuming the request for edit of a German sub was after the place units phase, then that request can absolutely be denied.

Andrew’s woes with the Russian turn being lost on his computer is a different type of issue, with the only thing in common being that the edit mode would be used.

#1 he was clearly not wishing to use edit mode to amend his move unless one were to call him a bold faced liar and cheat

Apparently the dice were verifiable. Both sides lost a unit. So dice are not an issue.
This is not messy, because the dice did not help Andrew go back and change his purchase or anything else in the Russian turn. There are plenty of scenarios were losing a save would be very messy - like if knowing the dice results would have affected decisions that take place before or after it. This one looks clean.

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I get it. If my opponent insisted on following the league default rule to the letter and suddenly I couldn’t edit anything in a previous phase, that would be an adjustment. If he then said he lost a save and needed to re-enact his whole turn and just expect me to trust him, I’d raise an eyebrow. Because he is invoking a league rule seldom followed, and then wanting leniency and understanding. I note that Andrew was mortified and transparent, thoroughly explaining what happened and hoping for understanding.

I see the sub and the lost file as non-related issues. The connection is that both would require edits, and that a by the book league rule was invoked by one player and then that same player fumbled on computer issues.

Again, if there was some way to argue an advantage was won by that save file being lost and the turn redone, we have a different conversation and some kind of compromise or re-do or throw out dice or whatever. But this isn’t messy.

No edits to back phases, and play on through the Russian save file disaster. That’s my ruling.

[gamerman01]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

just to get this clear for a slow norwegian. Andrews edit is 100% ok and is within league (and andrews) rules

Yes. I don’t have them all memorized so if someone could show me I’d certainly pay attention, but league rules are silent on computer issues.

However, as in my last post, situations there wouldn’t all be the same.

League rules are written in a way that if a player screws up, he is generally at the other player’s mercy.

In your case with the Russia turn it’s within your right to require the turn be re-done, with all dice rolled over again, or to keep them if you like them.

[oysteilo]

okay, thanks for the feed back. I will take a day or two here and I wish to offer my apology to andrew for not understanding this correctly. I am sorry it turned out this way

[gamerman01]

Note also that a player can hold the other player to the 72 hour posting rule and bump and claim win rules.

Virtually no one claims a win against someone using the strict bump rules, but they’re there so that you can.

[oysteilo]

@gamerman01 said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Note also that a player can hold the other player to the 72 hour posting rule and bump and claim win rules.

Virtually no one claims a win against someone using the strict bump rules, but they’re there so that you can.

well, thats hardly an option…

[gamerman01]

You guys are class acts, each of you. This understandable difference in opinions is unfortunate but nothing you can’t overcome. Let me know if you need any further clarification or if I seemed to contradict myself.

[gamerman01]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

@gamerman01 said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Note also that a player can hold the other player to the 72 hour posting rule and bump and claim win rules.

Virtually no one claims a win against someone using the strict bump rules, but they’re there so that you can.

well, thats hardly an option…

Right. It’s an example of a default league rule that could possibly be invoked by a player.

But in a playoff where you can’t control the timing or the opponent, that’s different. A player who can’t do 72 hours should make arrangements with the opponent and if that can’t be agreed, go to moderator

[AndrewAAGamer]

@gamerman01 Thank you for stepping in and resolving this issue.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@gamerman01 said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Note also that a player can hold the other player to the 72 hour posting rule and bump and claim win rules.

Virtually no one claims a win against someone using the strict bump rules, but they’re there so that you can.

That will not happen here. Via chat before we began both oysteilo and I both expressed our dislike of the bump rules and agreed not to abide by them.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

okay, thanks for the feed back. I will take a day or two here and I wish to offer my apology to andrew for not understanding this correctly. I am sorry it turned out this way

Apology accepted :)

Hopefully, thanks to gamerman01, we can put this behind us and continue on with an interesting game.

[gamerman01]

I expect nothing less,

Game on