OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51)

[oysteilo]

would it make a difference if I presented to you an original unedited file with my intended move and you do your edit on that file?

[oysteilo]

TripleA Turn Summary: Germans round 4

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition

Game History

Round: 4

    Research Technology - Germans

    Purchase Units - Germans
        Germans buy 1 destroyer and 10 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Germans
        6 infantry moved from Karelia to Novgorod
              Germans take Novgorod from Russians
        1 infantry moved from Vyborg to Novgorod
        1 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Western Ukraine
              Germans take Western Ukraine from Russians
        4 armour, 3 artilleries and 14 infantry moved from Baltic States to Novgorod
        2 armour moved from Poland to Novgorod

    Combat - Germans

    Non Combat Move - Germans
        1 fighter moved from Western Germany to Iceland
        1 tactical_bomber moved from 97 Sea Zone to Western Germany
        1 fighter moved from 97 Sea Zone to Western Germany
        1 tactical_bomber moved from Southern Italy to Western Germany
        3 aaGuns moved from Baltic States to Novgorod
        1 infantry moved from Poland to Baltic States
        4 artilleries and 5 infantry moved from Poland to Eastern Poland
        4 armour and 5 mech_infantrys moved from Germany to Eastern Poland
        1 armour, 2 artilleries and 7 infantry moved from Slovakia Hungary to Eastern Poland
        1 aaGun moved from Western Germany to Germany
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from France to Western Germany
        2 infantry moved from Yugoslavia to Romania
        1 armour moved from Greece to Romania
        2 infantry moved from Greece to 97 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from 97 Sea Zone to Northern Italy
        1 battleship, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 1 submarine and 1 transport moved from 125 Sea Zone to 112 Sea Zone

    Place Units - Germans
        10 mech_infantrys placed in Germany
        1 destroyer placed in 97 Sea Zone

    Turn Complete - Germans
        Germans collect 48 PUs; end with 49 PUs
        Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 54 PUs
        Objective Germans 2 Control Novgorod Or Volgograd Or Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 59 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Savegame

[oysteilo]

This is a file created by using the after combat auto save file. Would you be ok to do your edits on this file?

[AndrewAAGamer]

Do you mean you want to post a different save game file with a sub in 125 and have me edit that file?

If so then, no. I am against anything that would remove your error from the game. Your error has nothing to do with my loss of the game file. They are not connected.

The real, fair and honest question is if you had not made the error would you have complained about my forced edit?

I think not and that is the issue to me.

If you were saying “Andrew may be taking advantage of his situation by making a change and then posting an edited file” that would be, to me, a legitimate discussion.

Because there truly is no way to know if I stupidly lost the game file, as I should have saved it, or I am purposefully trying to make an edit because perhaps I forgot to move a unit and had already passed that point and did forget to make a save that could have corrected it without it being an edit.

That is why, to remove any thoughts that could be the case, I am now advocating that on the site in whole we a) post the completed CM phase and b) save the game after combat so the ONLY time we would ever have to edit a file would be if we lost the game during combat rolls. Since we would know what combat moves had been made there would be, as far as I can tell, no way to game the system so everyone could rest easy. I mean after all, in the past we DID post every move via ABattlemap and that seemed to work out just fine.

Again, I am not accusing anyone of trying to game the system like that today, and I doubt anyone is, but it COULD be done and why not close that loop so no one ever has to wonder if their Opponent is playing fair and properly?

[oysteilo]

Okay. I disagree. I think our errors are vey comparable. I think it is not responsible to leave an active, non posted game on over night without saving it and it is very comparable to simply overlook something. I feel I try to find common ground that we both can live with but I am not having much success. So I will wait and see if @gamerman01 can help and guide us through this

[gamerman01]

I want to be at the 10,000 foot level/view on this for you guys. You should be having a great time together, but it’s understandable to an outsider like me pretty much what’s at issue. By understandable, I think it’s pretty clear what’s at issue and I can sympathize with either of you when I put myself in your chair as a game player.

Here’s what I see.

@AndrewAAGamer said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Recap of Edit Policy agreed to in PM Chat:

This tells me Oysteilo had PM chat with Andrew and that an agreement as to edits had taken place in PM. If it hadn’t, I’m sure Oysteilo would have posted here that that was not true, at game outset. Regardless,

Since this is a playoff game there will be no asking for or allowing of any edits of any kind unless required due to TripleA inaccuracies. Once a Phase of a Turn is completed there is no going back to make any edits to that, or an earlier, completed phase.

This is default league rule, Andrew just wished to make it clear in the thread that the league rule would be enforced because the gimmes are routinely granted otherwise. League default rules are commonly bypassed by mutual agreement when it comes to noncombat moves and then place units and collect income, but that is a bypass that is agreed to by both players

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9 - Order of Play - You may not go back to previous phases/turns of the game and make changes without your opponent’s permission.

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Andrew was interested in playing with the actual league default rules and made it clear that that was what he wished to do, without demanding/requiring it. He did this before the game started.
Oysteilo clearly didn’t really like the idea, but in my view he explicitly agreed. Twice. There are mixed messages in his reply, but in my view it is definitely agreement.

And with the rule of no going back and editing being a default league rule, it takes both to agree that it will NOT be followed. So even if one player disagrees about playing the rule of no late edits, one player insisting on playing the default league rule is all it takes to force the default league rule. That is, it takes mutual agreement to go outside a default league rule. But in fact, Oysteilo caved and agreed.

Posting of a non-completed phase, to be completed later is allowable.

Some examples of things to double check, before completing a Phase are, a) did I unload my transports, b) did I move all my attacking units into the correct battle, c) did I bomb or attack where I was supposed to, d) did I move all my units I intended to, e) did I buy the units I intended to buy and f) did I place all my units.

[gamerman01]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Just to get this right, this is not something we have agreed upon, this is a dictate from AndrewAAGamer.

Andrew did not make up the rule.

I believe he is in his right to demand this and hence it is ok,

In my view this is consent, even though consent wasn’t technically required.

but it is not something I have agreed to. It also means if one unit was not moved during combat or during non combat and new units are placed and/or income collected that unit can not be edited even though nothing has happened.

Of course this goes both ways so it is what it is

I think this is also consent, not that it was required. But I don’t think Oysteilo can say he never agreed to it, because in my understanding this post says “yes” twice, though it is clearly hesitant and clearly unwelcome.

[oysteilo]

just to get this clear for a slow norwegian. Andrews edit is 100% ok and is within league (and andrews) rules

[gamerman01]

I don’t see in this game thread nor in the save file where a German sub was edited or that the edit was discussed. Maybe it was by PM. Assuming the request for edit of a German sub was after the place units phase, then that request can absolutely be denied.

Andrew’s woes with the Russian turn being lost on his computer is a different type of issue, with the only thing in common being that the edit mode would be used.

#1 he was clearly not wishing to use edit mode to amend his move unless one were to call him a bold faced liar and cheat

Apparently the dice were verifiable. Both sides lost a unit. So dice are not an issue.
This is not messy, because the dice did not help Andrew go back and change his purchase or anything else in the Russian turn. There are plenty of scenarios were losing a save would be very messy - like if knowing the dice results would have affected decisions that take place before or after it. This one looks clean.

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I get it. If my opponent insisted on following the league default rule to the letter and suddenly I couldn’t edit anything in a previous phase, that would be an adjustment. If he then said he lost a save and needed to re-enact his whole turn and just expect me to trust him, I’d raise an eyebrow. Because he is invoking a league rule seldom followed, and then wanting leniency and understanding. I note that Andrew was mortified and transparent, thoroughly explaining what happened and hoping for understanding.

I see the sub and the lost file as non-related issues. The connection is that both would require edits, and that a by the book league rule was invoked by one player and then that same player fumbled on computer issues.

Again, if there was some way to argue an advantage was won by that save file being lost and the turn redone, we have a different conversation and some kind of compromise or re-do or throw out dice or whatever. But this isn’t messy.

No edits to back phases, and play on through the Russian save file disaster. That’s my ruling.

[gamerman01]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

just to get this clear for a slow norwegian. Andrews edit is 100% ok and is within league (and andrews) rules

Yes. I don’t have them all memorized so if someone could show me I’d certainly pay attention, but league rules are silent on computer issues.

However, as in my last post, situations there wouldn’t all be the same.

League rules are written in a way that if a player screws up, he is generally at the other player’s mercy.

In your case with the Russia turn it’s within your right to require the turn be re-done, with all dice rolled over again, or to keep them if you like them.

[oysteilo]

okay, thanks for the feed back. I will take a day or two here and I wish to offer my apology to andrew for not understanding this correctly. I am sorry it turned out this way

[gamerman01]

Note also that a player can hold the other player to the 72 hour posting rule and bump and claim win rules.

Virtually no one claims a win against someone using the strict bump rules, but they’re there so that you can.

[oysteilo]

@gamerman01 said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Note also that a player can hold the other player to the 72 hour posting rule and bump and claim win rules.

Virtually no one claims a win against someone using the strict bump rules, but they’re there so that you can.

well, thats hardly an option…

[gamerman01]

You guys are class acts, each of you. This understandable difference in opinions is unfortunate but nothing you can’t overcome. Let me know if you need any further clarification or if I seemed to contradict myself.

[gamerman01]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

@gamerman01 said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Note also that a player can hold the other player to the 72 hour posting rule and bump and claim win rules.

Virtually no one claims a win against someone using the strict bump rules, but they’re there so that you can.

well, thats hardly an option…

Right. It’s an example of a default league rule that could possibly be invoked by a player.

But in a playoff where you can’t control the timing or the opponent, that’s different. A player who can’t do 72 hours should make arrangements with the opponent and if that can’t be agreed, go to moderator

[AndrewAAGamer]

@gamerman01 Thank you for stepping in and resolving this issue.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@gamerman01 said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Note also that a player can hold the other player to the 72 hour posting rule and bump and claim win rules.

Virtually no one claims a win against someone using the strict bump rules, but they’re there so that you can.

That will not happen here. Via chat before we began both oysteilo and I both expressed our dislike of the bump rules and agreed not to abide by them.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

okay, thanks for the feed back. I will take a day or two here and I wish to offer my apology to andrew for not understanding this correctly. I am sorry it turned out this way

Apology accepted :)

Hopefully, thanks to gamerman01, we can put this behind us and continue on with an interesting game.

[gamerman01]

I expect nothing less,

Game on