OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51)

[Booper]

@AndrewAAGamer said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Speaking of the edit, you are perfectly within your rights to state, “Andrew, I do not accept your edit.” In which case I will have to redo the entire Russian Turn and present you with a non-edited file. Do you deny me the edit and wish me to redo the Russian Turn?

Andrew, just asking for clarification on this. I don’t understand how this would be allowable, to re-do Russia’s entire turn, including dice rolls.

By extension, are you saying the German’s would have had the opportunity to re-do their entire turn, including NCM rather than submitting an edited file?

This seems far worse than allowing a simple edit from a NCM phase.

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Regarding the greater issue at hand though, I don’t believe this follows Generally Accepted league practices with a rather legalistic and unyielding view of edits in playoff games. In my experience, I have not encountered a single player in league who does not allow NCM edits if the next turn has not started. This is mainly for (1) Fun game play experience (2) More competitive game play experience (do you want to win due to an obvious oversight?) (3) Imperfect translation of an over-the-board experience to an online experience.

As luck would have it, a new player asked me about how the League works, and when moves are “locked in” or not, and when edits are acceptable. I re-post my response to him here, with minor editorial corrections (sorry about specific references to our game as well):

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Well, the moderator of the league is gamerman01, so he knows best, but I will take a quick stab at it here.

1. Attack orders/Scramble/Intercept requests:
   Once you send the request, these attack orders become locked in. You can’t ask about scrambling/intercept, get a response you don’t really like, then change your mind and change up the attacks.

2. Attack rolls:
   Once you start, you have to at least finish 1 round of attacks and then retreat if you made a mistake or the battle is not going your way. You can do as much “simulation” gaming as you wish with local rolls, but once they are sent to the dice server, thy are locked in and cannot be changed. If there is an obvious blunder made, like in your case bringing in the transports, that can be addressed after the attacks are resolved - that would have been an easy edit back.

3. When is it OK to make edits?
   Generally, when all the main dice rolls have completed, the Non-Combat Move phase is in the aftermath of the battles that took place. Most players allow virtually as many edits as you need here, provided the other side hasn’t started their turn. If you have significant edits to make, you should post quickly and ask the other player to hold off taking their turn until you complete the edits. Forgotten obvious walk-in attacks or killing of defenseless transports are a bit more gray, but most players here will allow this to take place as well if you missed something. If it is justifiable that the move “would not have been affected by any of the dice outcomes”, this is usually permitted, but should be requested, as your opponent could technically deny it, as it needed to be included with your initial Combat phase declarations. Most people here are pretty casual and out for a fun game, so aren’t sticklers about this, but then some are.

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While statement (3) in particular is not codified in the rules, I would say it is a generally accepted standard within the league.

Full respect to you Andrew - I think you have advanced the quality of play more than anyone else, with your excellent strategy essays (which I deem as required reading for any new league player) and extremely insightful interview.

I would humbly suggest this game adheres to what the rest of the league has come to recognize as the standard with respect to edits, which I attempted to outline, but could likely use refinement as well.

[oysteilo]

Well said @Booper
To me this is about edits, nothing else. Germany round 4 shows what i dislike about this. Not a single dice is rolled here, but the error i make is that i post. Technically i could have just started over again and no worries, but when the file is posted it is hard to do and I dont bother asking for an edit. Because my opponent would never ever ever accept it. And what is next? He is doing an edit because something happened that he has not thought about and then the edit policy, that he has forced me to accept, suddenly does not apply. For me my error has a consequence, but for Andrew he can just start over again. That strikes me as unfair

[oysteilo]

Really, all i ask for at this point is the following

1. Put a sub in 125 and take 5 ipc away from Russia, so Russia is at 31
2. NC edits can be made for the rest of the game.

If @AndrewAAGamer agrees to this no need for @gamerman01 to get involved

[AndrewAAGamer]

@Booper said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

@AndrewAAGamer said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Speaking of the edit, you are perfectly within your rights to state, “Andrew, I do not accept your edit.” In which case I will have to redo the entire Russian Turn and present you with a non-edited file. Do you deny me the edit and wish me to redo the Russian Turn?

Andrew, just asking for clarification on this. I don’t understand how this would be allowable, to re-do Russia’s entire turn, including dice rolls.

If oysteilo is going to deny the edit I was forced to do to provide a game file then I have to present him with an unedited file. Since the only way to do that would be to redo the Russian Turn that is what I would be forced to do. The Turn would be made exactly the same, no change in movement would be allowed. However, as you point out, the dice rolls could possibly end up in a different result. Since the battle went favorably for oysteilo I do not know why he would want this but it is the only way to present him with an unedited file which is his right.

By extension, are you saying the German’s would have had the opportunity to re-do their entire turn, including NCM rather than submitting an edited file?

No, I am not. Germany did present me with an unedited file. There is no disagreement here regarding that.

This seems far worse than allowing a simple edit from a NCM phase.

I agree. But if oysteilo insists on an unedited file I don’t know of any other way to present him with one.

Regarding the greater issue at hand though, I don’t believe this follows Generally Accepted league practices with a rather legalistic and unyielding view of edits in playoff games. In my experience, I have not encountered a single player in league who does not allow NCM edits if the next turn has not started. This is mainly for (1) Fun game play experience (2) More competitive game play experience (do you want to win due to an obvious oversight?) (3) Imperfect translation of an over-the-board experience to an online experience.

I would agree that the vast majority of players allow edits during NCM. I would disagree that I am the only one not allowing edits after a game posts or after combat rolls are made since I have played many a game with other players who agree with this approach.

In regards to your three points.

As stated above, I have played games with other players who agree that once a Turn is posted there should be no edits.

I agree that most Players find the game more fun if they can do edits.

Trying to not make obvious mistakes is part of the competitive process.

People make mistakes in face to face games too, in fact usually more as you do not have as much time to study the board.

Playing here for a few years now I have found I seem to be able to make fewer requests than my opponents regarding edits. I don’t know why this is, perhaps I put more time in then they do taking my Turns. Therefore, in a game where edits are not allowed, which is the League default rules, I have a very slight advantage due to my abilities. I have also found that other people do not like to play with no edits. As you say, it takes the fun out of the game for them to have to put in more effort to make sure they don’t need edits.

Since most games here are for fun, that is why I do allow NCM edits in most of my games. It is not because I want to, it is because I realize that if I do not allow them I will have a hard time finding opponents who want to play with me. Playoff games are not for fun. They are for the Champion of the Year. Why should I give up one of my abilities of needing fewer edits than my opponent just so they can have fun? Are they going to give up some of their playing abilities so I can have fun?

I would humbly suggest this game adheres to what the rest of the league has come to recognize as the standard with respect to edits, which I attempted to outline, but could likely use refinement as well.

If the League Rules are to allow edits than I will do that. Otherwise, I have learned over the years not to succumb to peer pressure.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Really, all i ask for at this point is the following

1. Put a sub in 125 and take 5 ipc away from Russia, so Russia is at 31
2. NC edits can be made for the rest of the game.

If @AndrewAAGamer agrees to this no need for @gamerman01 to get involved

So now we come down to the real truth here. You made an error and did not catch it till after you posted. That upset you.

What a golden opportunity for you when I lost the game file immediately thereafter, which you readily agree is what happened, and now you are going to try and use that as an opportunity to correct your mistake.

How is that fair? Or for that matter, ethical?

I did not make a mistake, I had an unfortunate incident which did not effect game play in anyway and yet you want to use it as leverage to remove your mistake. I have suggested, to avoid this circumstance from happening again, that we post after CM to insure any possible game freezes during combat can be verified to be only game freezes and nothing else. So we can both be sure we are playing fair with each other. In contrast, you want to gain an advantage over a computer glitch. What a difference.

I will not agree to that. I consider this action extortion and will not abide by that. I have offered to accept your right to deny the edit, that is your only recourse. If you deny it then I will redo the Russian Turn exactly as before, but of course, with new dice rolls. I would not recommend that course of action but it is your decision.

As for edits, your behavior has solidified my resolve to deny you any edits during the game. I will follow the League default rules regarding edits, you may do what you want as I will not be asking for edits.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Well said @Booper
Technically i could have just started over again and no worries, but when the file is posted it is hard to do and I dont bother asking for an edit.

This is an incorrect statement. You are not allowed to post and then redo your Turn. Once posted, your Turn is over.

He is doing an edit because something happened that he has not thought about and then the edit policy, that he has forced me to accept, suddenly does not apply. For me my error has a consequence, but for Andrew he can just start over again. That strikes me as unfair

If you can tell me how to present you with an unedited file when the game file is lost I would be happy to do that. Yes, I am doing an edit to present you with a game file due to something happening out of my control.

You want to do an edit to fix a mistake. That is a vast difference.

[oysteilo]

One final post from me here. I will not contribute to this discussion any further as it has come to an end point. I will leave the thread for a couple of days and review later what i will do. The options are to retire from this game or to continue. Meanwhile there might be additional posts here that might help my decision.

[oysteilo]

I know what I just said, still I have a need to have one more go at what I mean. I acknowledge the fact that andrew has to make an edt in his situation. My point is, he makes a mistake by not saving the file, I make a mistake in not moving my unit. So in my book those are pretty similar things. This also would never have been an issue with a less strict policy. This is only an issue because Andrew forces me to accept rules that noone but andrew is using. Then, Andrews error can just be edited, because his error was something he could not have foreseen if I read him correctly. I disagree with that, but still you cant deny that this is an edit that is not covered by the edit policy. Then at the end of the day Andrew denies me an edit refering to the policy that he just broke himself.

[AndrewAAGamer]

Thank you for coming back and toning down the level of the conversation.

I totally understand your frustration with making a mistake that you are not being allowed to correct; especially when many others would allow that mistake to be corrected. However, that is the rules we agreed to play under, even if you were “forced” to use them. If you are not happy with those default rules petition the League to change the rules. In short, I am not forcing you do do anything, I am simply saying I will be following the default rules in regards to edits since this is a playoff game.

While that is a frustrating experience, I know I get upset at myself when I make errors, I disagree that it is the same. You now want to make an edit to correct a mistake that was part of the game. I had to make an edit due to the platform we use to play the game. They are not the same; one is inside the game and one is outside the game.

In addition, I am not asking that my edit should be allowed. I am saying you could deny the edit and if you do I would have to redo the Turn. But, since you rolled well it makes no sense to deny me the edit. If your Chinese unit had missed and I was forced to redo the Turn it would be perfectly acceptable to me to have you deny me the edit and force me to reroll the battle.

[oysteilo]

would it make a difference if I presented to you an original unedited file with my intended move and you do your edit on that file?

[oysteilo]

TripleA Turn Summary: Germans round 4

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition

Game History

Round: 4

    Research Technology - Germans

    Purchase Units - Germans
        Germans buy 1 destroyer and 10 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Germans
        6 infantry moved from Karelia to Novgorod
              Germans take Novgorod from Russians
        1 infantry moved from Vyborg to Novgorod
        1 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Western Ukraine
              Germans take Western Ukraine from Russians
        4 armour, 3 artilleries and 14 infantry moved from Baltic States to Novgorod
        2 armour moved from Poland to Novgorod

    Combat - Germans

    Non Combat Move - Germans
        1 fighter moved from Western Germany to Iceland
        1 tactical_bomber moved from 97 Sea Zone to Western Germany
        1 fighter moved from 97 Sea Zone to Western Germany
        1 tactical_bomber moved from Southern Italy to Western Germany
        3 aaGuns moved from Baltic States to Novgorod
        1 infantry moved from Poland to Baltic States
        4 artilleries and 5 infantry moved from Poland to Eastern Poland
        4 armour and 5 mech_infantrys moved from Germany to Eastern Poland
        1 armour, 2 artilleries and 7 infantry moved from Slovakia Hungary to Eastern Poland
        1 aaGun moved from Western Germany to Germany
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from France to Western Germany
        2 infantry moved from Yugoslavia to Romania
        1 armour moved from Greece to Romania
        2 infantry moved from Greece to 97 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from 97 Sea Zone to Northern Italy
        1 battleship, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 1 submarine and 1 transport moved from 125 Sea Zone to 112 Sea Zone

    Place Units - Germans
        10 mech_infantrys placed in Germany
        1 destroyer placed in 97 Sea Zone

    Turn Complete - Germans
        Germans collect 48 PUs; end with 49 PUs
        Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 54 PUs
        Objective Germans 2 Control Novgorod Or Volgograd Or Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 59 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Savegame

[oysteilo]

This is a file created by using the after combat auto save file. Would you be ok to do your edits on this file?

[AndrewAAGamer]

Do you mean you want to post a different save game file with a sub in 125 and have me edit that file?

If so then, no. I am against anything that would remove your error from the game. Your error has nothing to do with my loss of the game file. They are not connected.

The real, fair and honest question is if you had not made the error would you have complained about my forced edit?

I think not and that is the issue to me.

If you were saying “Andrew may be taking advantage of his situation by making a change and then posting an edited file” that would be, to me, a legitimate discussion.

Because there truly is no way to know if I stupidly lost the game file, as I should have saved it, or I am purposefully trying to make an edit because perhaps I forgot to move a unit and had already passed that point and did forget to make a save that could have corrected it without it being an edit.

That is why, to remove any thoughts that could be the case, I am now advocating that on the site in whole we a) post the completed CM phase and b) save the game after combat so the ONLY time we would ever have to edit a file would be if we lost the game during combat rolls. Since we would know what combat moves had been made there would be, as far as I can tell, no way to game the system so everyone could rest easy. I mean after all, in the past we DID post every move via ABattlemap and that seemed to work out just fine.

Again, I am not accusing anyone of trying to game the system like that today, and I doubt anyone is, but it COULD be done and why not close that loop so no one ever has to wonder if their Opponent is playing fair and properly?

[oysteilo]

Okay. I disagree. I think our errors are vey comparable. I think it is not responsible to leave an active, non posted game on over night without saving it and it is very comparable to simply overlook something. I feel I try to find common ground that we both can live with but I am not having much success. So I will wait and see if @gamerman01 can help and guide us through this

[gamerman01]

I want to be at the 10,000 foot level/view on this for you guys. You should be having a great time together, but it’s understandable to an outsider like me pretty much what’s at issue. By understandable, I think it’s pretty clear what’s at issue and I can sympathize with either of you when I put myself in your chair as a game player.

Here’s what I see.

@AndrewAAGamer said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Recap of Edit Policy agreed to in PM Chat:

This tells me Oysteilo had PM chat with Andrew and that an agreement as to edits had taken place in PM. If it hadn’t, I’m sure Oysteilo would have posted here that that was not true, at game outset. Regardless,

Since this is a playoff game there will be no asking for or allowing of any edits of any kind unless required due to TripleA inaccuracies. Once a Phase of a Turn is completed there is no going back to make any edits to that, or an earlier, completed phase.

This is default league rule, Andrew just wished to make it clear in the thread that the league rule would be enforced because the gimmes are routinely granted otherwise. League default rules are commonly bypassed by mutual agreement when it comes to noncombat moves and then place units and collect income, but that is a bypass that is agreed to by both players

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9 - Order of Play - You may not go back to previous phases/turns of the game and make changes without your opponent’s permission.

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Andrew was interested in playing with the actual league default rules and made it clear that that was what he wished to do, without demanding/requiring it. He did this before the game started.
Oysteilo clearly didn’t really like the idea, but in my view he explicitly agreed. Twice. There are mixed messages in his reply, but in my view it is definitely agreement.

And with the rule of no going back and editing being a default league rule, it takes both to agree that it will NOT be followed. So even if one player disagrees about playing the rule of no late edits, one player insisting on playing the default league rule is all it takes to force the default league rule. That is, it takes mutual agreement to go outside a default league rule. But in fact, Oysteilo caved and agreed.

Posting of a non-completed phase, to be completed later is allowable.

Some examples of things to double check, before completing a Phase are, a) did I unload my transports, b) did I move all my attacking units into the correct battle, c) did I bomb or attack where I was supposed to, d) did I move all my units I intended to, e) did I buy the units I intended to buy and f) did I place all my units.

[gamerman01]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Just to get this right, this is not something we have agreed upon, this is a dictate from AndrewAAGamer.

Andrew did not make up the rule.

I believe he is in his right to demand this and hence it is ok,

In my view this is consent, even though consent wasn’t technically required.

but it is not something I have agreed to. It also means if one unit was not moved during combat or during non combat and new units are placed and/or income collected that unit can not be edited even though nothing has happened.

Of course this goes both ways so it is what it is

I think this is also consent, not that it was required. But I don’t think Oysteilo can say he never agreed to it, because in my understanding this post says “yes” twice, though it is clearly hesitant and clearly unwelcome.

[oysteilo]

just to get this clear for a slow norwegian. Andrews edit is 100% ok and is within league (and andrews) rules

[gamerman01]

I don’t see in this game thread nor in the save file where a German sub was edited or that the edit was discussed. Maybe it was by PM. Assuming the request for edit of a German sub was after the place units phase, then that request can absolutely be denied.

Andrew’s woes with the Russian turn being lost on his computer is a different type of issue, with the only thing in common being that the edit mode would be used.

#1 he was clearly not wishing to use edit mode to amend his move unless one were to call him a bold faced liar and cheat

Apparently the dice were verifiable. Both sides lost a unit. So dice are not an issue.
This is not messy, because the dice did not help Andrew go back and change his purchase or anything else in the Russian turn. There are plenty of scenarios were losing a save would be very messy - like if knowing the dice results would have affected decisions that take place before or after it. This one looks clean.

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I get it. If my opponent insisted on following the league default rule to the letter and suddenly I couldn’t edit anything in a previous phase, that would be an adjustment. If he then said he lost a save and needed to re-enact his whole turn and just expect me to trust him, I’d raise an eyebrow. Because he is invoking a league rule seldom followed, and then wanting leniency and understanding. I note that Andrew was mortified and transparent, thoroughly explaining what happened and hoping for understanding.

I see the sub and the lost file as non-related issues. The connection is that both would require edits, and that a by the book league rule was invoked by one player and then that same player fumbled on computer issues.

Again, if there was some way to argue an advantage was won by that save file being lost and the turn redone, we have a different conversation and some kind of compromise or re-do or throw out dice or whatever. But this isn’t messy.

No edits to back phases, and play on through the Russian save file disaster. That’s my ruling.

[gamerman01]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

just to get this clear for a slow norwegian. Andrews edit is 100% ok and is within league (and andrews) rules

Yes. I don’t have them all memorized so if someone could show me I’d certainly pay attention, but league rules are silent on computer issues.

However, as in my last post, situations there wouldn’t all be the same.

League rules are written in a way that if a player screws up, he is generally at the other player’s mercy.

In your case with the Russia turn it’s within your right to require the turn be re-done, with all dice rolled over again, or to keep them if you like them.

[oysteilo]

okay, thanks for the feed back. I will take a day or two here and I wish to offer my apology to andrew for not understanding this correctly. I am sorry it turned out this way