OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51)

[Booper]

@AndrewAAGamer said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Speaking of the edit, you are perfectly within your rights to state, “Andrew, I do not accept your edit.” In which case I will have to redo the entire Russian Turn and present you with a non-edited file. Do you deny me the edit and wish me to redo the Russian Turn?

Andrew, just asking for clarification on this. I don’t understand how this would be allowable, to re-do Russia’s entire turn, including dice rolls.

By extension, are you saying the German’s would have had the opportunity to re-do their entire turn, including NCM rather than submitting an edited file?

This seems far worse than allowing a simple edit from a NCM phase.

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Regarding the greater issue at hand though, I don’t believe this follows Generally Accepted league practices with a rather legalistic and unyielding view of edits in playoff games. In my experience, I have not encountered a single player in league who does not allow NCM edits if the next turn has not started. This is mainly for (1) Fun game play experience (2) More competitive game play experience (do you want to win due to an obvious oversight?) (3) Imperfect translation of an over-the-board experience to an online experience.

As luck would have it, a new player asked me about how the League works, and when moves are “locked in” or not, and when edits are acceptable. I re-post my response to him here, with minor editorial corrections (sorry about specific references to our game as well):

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Well, the moderator of the league is gamerman01, so he knows best, but I will take a quick stab at it here.

1. Attack orders/Scramble/Intercept requests:
   Once you send the request, these attack orders become locked in. You can’t ask about scrambling/intercept, get a response you don’t really like, then change your mind and change up the attacks.

2. Attack rolls:
   Once you start, you have to at least finish 1 round of attacks and then retreat if you made a mistake or the battle is not going your way. You can do as much “simulation” gaming as you wish with local rolls, but once they are sent to the dice server, thy are locked in and cannot be changed. If there is an obvious blunder made, like in your case bringing in the transports, that can be addressed after the attacks are resolved - that would have been an easy edit back.

3. When is it OK to make edits?
   Generally, when all the main dice rolls have completed, the Non-Combat Move phase is in the aftermath of the battles that took place. Most players allow virtually as many edits as you need here, provided the other side hasn’t started their turn. If you have significant edits to make, you should post quickly and ask the other player to hold off taking their turn until you complete the edits. Forgotten obvious walk-in attacks or killing of defenseless transports are a bit more gray, but most players here will allow this to take place as well if you missed something. If it is justifiable that the move “would not have been affected by any of the dice outcomes”, this is usually permitted, but should be requested, as your opponent could technically deny it, as it needed to be included with your initial Combat phase declarations. Most people here are pretty casual and out for a fun game, so aren’t sticklers about this, but then some are.

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While statement (3) in particular is not codified in the rules, I would say it is a generally accepted standard within the league.

Full respect to you Andrew - I think you have advanced the quality of play more than anyone else, with your excellent strategy essays (which I deem as required reading for any new league player) and extremely insightful interview.

I would humbly suggest this game adheres to what the rest of the league has come to recognize as the standard with respect to edits, which I attempted to outline, but could likely use refinement as well.

[oysteilo]

Well said @Booper
To me this is about edits, nothing else. Germany round 4 shows what i dislike about this. Not a single dice is rolled here, but the error i make is that i post. Technically i could have just started over again and no worries, but when the file is posted it is hard to do and I dont bother asking for an edit. Because my opponent would never ever ever accept it. And what is next? He is doing an edit because something happened that he has not thought about and then the edit policy, that he has forced me to accept, suddenly does not apply. For me my error has a consequence, but for Andrew he can just start over again. That strikes me as unfair

[oysteilo]

Really, all i ask for at this point is the following

1. Put a sub in 125 and take 5 ipc away from Russia, so Russia is at 31
2. NC edits can be made for the rest of the game.

If @AndrewAAGamer agrees to this no need for @gamerman01 to get involved

[AndrewAAGamer]

@Booper said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

@AndrewAAGamer said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Speaking of the edit, you are perfectly within your rights to state, “Andrew, I do not accept your edit.” In which case I will have to redo the entire Russian Turn and present you with a non-edited file. Do you deny me the edit and wish me to redo the Russian Turn?

Andrew, just asking for clarification on this. I don’t understand how this would be allowable, to re-do Russia’s entire turn, including dice rolls.

If oysteilo is going to deny the edit I was forced to do to provide a game file then I have to present him with an unedited file. Since the only way to do that would be to redo the Russian Turn that is what I would be forced to do. The Turn would be made exactly the same, no change in movement would be allowed. However, as you point out, the dice rolls could possibly end up in a different result. Since the battle went favorably for oysteilo I do not know why he would want this but it is the only way to present him with an unedited file which is his right.

By extension, are you saying the German’s would have had the opportunity to re-do their entire turn, including NCM rather than submitting an edited file?

No, I am not. Germany did present me with an unedited file. There is no disagreement here regarding that.

This seems far worse than allowing a simple edit from a NCM phase.

I agree. But if oysteilo insists on an unedited file I don’t know of any other way to present him with one.

Regarding the greater issue at hand though, I don’t believe this follows Generally Accepted league practices with a rather legalistic and unyielding view of edits in playoff games. In my experience, I have not encountered a single player in league who does not allow NCM edits if the next turn has not started. This is mainly for (1) Fun game play experience (2) More competitive game play experience (do you want to win due to an obvious oversight?) (3) Imperfect translation of an over-the-board experience to an online experience.

I would agree that the vast majority of players allow edits during NCM. I would disagree that I am the only one not allowing edits after a game posts or after combat rolls are made since I have played many a game with other players who agree with this approach.

In regards to your three points.

As stated above, I have played games with other players who agree that once a Turn is posted there should be no edits.

I agree that most Players find the game more fun if they can do edits.

Trying to not make obvious mistakes is part of the competitive process.

People make mistakes in face to face games too, in fact usually more as you do not have as much time to study the board.

Playing here for a few years now I have found I seem to be able to make fewer requests than my opponents regarding edits. I don’t know why this is, perhaps I put more time in then they do taking my Turns. Therefore, in a game where edits are not allowed, which is the League default rules, I have a very slight advantage due to my abilities. I have also found that other people do not like to play with no edits. As you say, it takes the fun out of the game for them to have to put in more effort to make sure they don’t need edits.

Since most games here are for fun, that is why I do allow NCM edits in most of my games. It is not because I want to, it is because I realize that if I do not allow them I will have a hard time finding opponents who want to play with me. Playoff games are not for fun. They are for the Champion of the Year. Why should I give up one of my abilities of needing fewer edits than my opponent just so they can have fun? Are they going to give up some of their playing abilities so I can have fun?

I would humbly suggest this game adheres to what the rest of the league has come to recognize as the standard with respect to edits, which I attempted to outline, but could likely use refinement as well.

If the League Rules are to allow edits than I will do that. Otherwise, I have learned over the years not to succumb to peer pressure.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Really, all i ask for at this point is the following

1. Put a sub in 125 and take 5 ipc away from Russia, so Russia is at 31
2. NC edits can be made for the rest of the game.

If @AndrewAAGamer agrees to this no need for @gamerman01 to get involved

So now we come down to the real truth here. You made an error and did not catch it till after you posted. That upset you.

What a golden opportunity for you when I lost the game file immediately thereafter, which you readily agree is what happened, and now you are going to try and use that as an opportunity to correct your mistake.

How is that fair? Or for that matter, ethical?

I did not make a mistake, I had an unfortunate incident which did not effect game play in anyway and yet you want to use it as leverage to remove your mistake. I have suggested, to avoid this circumstance from happening again, that we post after CM to insure any possible game freezes during combat can be verified to be only game freezes and nothing else. So we can both be sure we are playing fair with each other. In contrast, you want to gain an advantage over a computer glitch. What a difference.

I will not agree to that. I consider this action extortion and will not abide by that. I have offered to accept your right to deny the edit, that is your only recourse. If you deny it then I will redo the Russian Turn exactly as before, but of course, with new dice rolls. I would not recommend that course of action but it is your decision.

As for edits, your behavior has solidified my resolve to deny you any edits during the game. I will follow the League default rules regarding edits, you may do what you want as I will not be asking for edits.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@oysteilo said in OOB Playoffs R2 oysteilo (axis) vs. AndrewAAGamer (+51):

Well said @Booper
Technically i could have just started over again and no worries, but when the file is posted it is hard to do and I dont bother asking for an edit.

This is an incorrect statement. You are not allowed to post and then redo your Turn. Once posted, your Turn is over.

He is doing an edit because something happened that he has not thought about and then the edit policy, that he has forced me to accept, suddenly does not apply. For me my error has a consequence, but for Andrew he can just start over again. That strikes me as unfair

If you can tell me how to present you with an unedited file when the game file is lost I would be happy to do that. Yes, I am doing an edit to present you with a game file due to something happening out of my control.

You want to do an edit to fix a mistake. That is a vast difference.

[oysteilo]

One final post from me here. I will not contribute to this discussion any further as it has come to an end point. I will leave the thread for a couple of days and review later what i will do. The options are to retire from this game or to continue. Meanwhile there might be additional posts here that might help my decision.