Yeah, I’ve read that and I believe it. I think until 1943 or 1944 the Americans had more ground units in the Pacific?
Yeah, the US built a ton of ships. For some reason the US never gets to seemingly similar numbers in the game.
Seeking a better understanding of the bid numbers
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Idk if you’ve seen this thread but there’s some good information it. Imo anyway :)
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/41788/bids?_=1769449021573
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Ok, so what version is used on the forum games? is it consistent? from a quick skim it looks like some people use the most recent prerelease, which is often a bit buggy, as opposed to the latest relatively stable prerelease, which was back in the 2.6 line, but noone uses the old 2.5 stable. It also seems like people may be using slightly different versions.
I haven’t fully assessed the effects of a round 1 Jdow, but I redid the math and it does seem like it may account for some of the discrepancy between community results; Some of it is also because of my area allowing the ANZAC inf to just be placed so they can get the territory for their NO, which accounts for 7 of the difference.
I’d be interested to see some of the best and/or first games with the Yunnan stack to see how they played out and to see which countermeasures were deployed, as I do wonder if a J1 dow is still feasible vs a Yunnan stack.
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I’ll just give a short reply to that very last statement about J1 and Yunnan,
Japan can’t attack Yunnan in that case, so Japan can’t do much of anything if she doesn’t declare war on the allies. That’s a lot of aircraft not attacking anything.
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@gamerman01
It is indeed, which makes me wonder about the earlier statement by another about Yunnan stack discouraging j1 dow.I wonder why the Yunnan stack proved stronger against Japan than any of the other ways one could spend part of the bid to disrupt Japan. Admittedly some of the alternatives are dicey, so they create high variance.
I’m guessing attempts to use the bid to shore up the Russian front didn’t work out because of the time delay before they really accomplish anything? Mathwise it looks like they could adjust the theater income, but probably not by enough to really matter, though it does make me wonder abotu some KGF strats.
At any rate, I look forward to exploring this a bit more, try out some things, at least if I find someone who wants to.
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With the Yunnan bid, some would also put a couple artillery on the Siberian stacks. As exciting as that seems at first, after playing a number of 2nd edition games since then it seems almost rare that the artillery tips scales for the Russians, like in some big attack.
@zlefin said in Seeking a better understanding of the bid numbers:
I wonder why the Yunnan stack proved stronger against Japan than any of the other ways one could spend part of the bid to disrupt Japan.
With rules of only one bid unit per territory, you can’t possibly stack a defense against a G1. But with Russian aircraft + a Chinese man on Yunnan, that is EXACTLY what you can do to Japan. You need the Russian air anyway, and they can fly back home soon. The stuffing stopping power at Yunnan on J1 is the most prohibitive bid placement I can imagine.
Admittedly some of the alternatives are dicey, so they create high variance.
Yeah. No attack, no dice, no chance of failure. That’s the Yunnan bid
At any rate, I look forward to exploring this a bit more, try out some things, at least if I find someone who wants to.
Not telling you what to do, but there are players here who will play Yunnan bid games with you.
The Yunnan bid is extremely powerful. I won’t play against it because I consider it game breaking - it flat out goes against the obvious design of the game for round 1. I have my opponent name his bid placement during bidding so that I know what I’m bidding against. With really high bids, this makes sense to me, but I think I’m the pioneer there.
Securing the Burma road, probably permanently, messes Japan up BIG TIME. Not to mention the sexy artillery China could buy C1, but doesn’t even need to, because she can buy them later. +6 NO every turn, right in the heart of the SE Asia theater, just suffocating.
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I see, I didn’t think it was that bad; from my look-over it seems like Japan could still shut off the Burma road by killing India. But I guess that costs them too much to do so? Certainly it’s not a huge loss to Russia to have that stuff occupied for a bit.
It certainly does change J1 a fair deal. Though I’m not sure how much it changes compared to the bid that just gives the cash to China and they buy a huge inf stack on Yunnan on their first turn.
I’m surprised nobody has found another bid that so sharply changes the game; bid numbers around 50 seem to have a lot of room for really reshaping a theater, but the lack of focal points for an allied attack do limit it I guess, only so many good round 1 battles you can do.
So what do you do with your bids?
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@zlefin said in Seeking a better understanding of the bid numbers:
Though I’m not sure how much it changes compared to the bid that just gives the cash to China and they buy a huge inf stack on Yunnan on their first turn.
Uh… I think you cracked the code. It doesn’t give Russia extra fighters, but at first blush this seems more effective. We just don’t think in terms of banking the IPCs. This seems a great example of why you should - China can place her infantry anywhere controlled at the end of the turn, so with China this… could be… a real game changer. It follows the rule of one unit per territory but breaks it by getting around it. China doesn’t have IC’s of course so it works differently.
However, the league can simply make a rule limiting the amount banked to any power.
I like that - that would be fun to play. A bid of 30 to China… 10 men right on the front line. No more cowering
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I believe someone did try playing a large bid to China. Not sure, but I think it was @Arthur-Bomber-Harris vs @AndrewAAGamer
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I assumed from the fact that it’s not more common that something about it doesn’t actually work well. I mean, there are ways to play around it; but it does seem a bit silly to be able to be able to, in cases of a high bid like 54, give it all to china, and have them use it plus their starting cash to add 22 inf to yunnan.
and yes, someone did, that’s where I heard about it, from reading somewhere else on this forum.
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@zlefin I’ve seen the occassional cash bid where both players agreed, but normally the bid buys units and only left over cash (1-2 ipcs) is given to any player. It may not strictly speaking be a break of the bid rules but I’ve always taken it to be just because the rules speak to bid unit placement and not banking. And I think banking has the potential to be more seriously game breaking.
With a Yunnan stack, Japan can still kill the Burma road by getting India but it is often only after China has benefited significantly from the extra cash. Japan is usually short on land units, so even without India, a strong China and American pressure can make it hard for htem even if they have managed to get India. That being said, I don’t see the Yunnan stack as game breaking. It means Japanese strategies can’t rely on getting Yunnan round 1 but that can be overcome.
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it was ABH and Andrew that played that and the game should be somewhere here.
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@zlefin said in Seeking a better understanding of the bid numbers:
I’d be interested to see some of the best and/or first games with the Yunnan stack to see how they played out and to see which countermeasures were deployed, as I do wonder if a J1 dow is still feasible vs a Yunnan stack.
I tried multiple strategies against the Yunnan Stack. One of the reasons my recent games have not gone so well. In my opinion the only counter to the Yunnan Stack is NOT to do a J1 DOW. Otherwise, the Allies just gang up on a much weaker Japan. I think the proper response is to not do the J1 DOW and try and put as much pressure on China as possible before declaring war and threatening India. I tried this against @Farmboy in the 2024 playoffs and it was fairly successful. Unfortunately, I lost an 84% chance to wipe out the entire Allied Pacific Armies in Burma and that ended the game prematurely.
The Yunnan Stack allows China to gain more monies, consistently buy artillery and force any threat on India to be an all water adventure. Makes life very tough.
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@gamerman01 said in Seeking a better understanding of the bid numbers:
@zlefin said in Seeking a better understanding of the bid numbers:
Though I’m not sure how much it changes compared to the bid that just gives the cash to China and they buy a huge inf stack on Yunnan on their first turn.
Uh… I think you cracked the code. It doesn’t give Russia extra fighters, but at first blush this seems more effective. We just don’t think in terms of banking the IPCs. This seems a great example of why you should - China can place her infantry anywhere controlled at the end of the turn, so with China this… could be… a real game changer. It follows the rule of one unit per territory but breaks it by getting around it. China doesn’t have IC’s of course so it works differently.
However, the league can simply make a rule limiting the amount banked to any power.
I like that - that would be fun to play. A bid of 30 to China… 10 men right on the front line. No more cowering
Indeed, @Arthur-Bomber-Harris did put his entire Bid into the Pacific area with, as I remember, $51 being banked by China. On C1 he placed 17 infantry in China to go along with the 3 British infantry he earlier placed. It was very difficult for me to deal with and worked up to a point Luckily, for me, he made an error and I was able to capitalize on it and win the game even though it was a tough bid to counter.
Though that Bid seemed to work, since it required a) a Bid of $60 which I will never give again and b) using the entire Bid to stop Japan the detriment of not putting anything against Germany was a hindrance.
Whereas, the Yunnan Stack only costs $23. A mere pittance, and as @gamerman01 already alluded to those two Russian fighters fly home to assist in the defense of Moscow against Germany. It is a significantly better way to stop Japan.
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Thanks, I’ll be sure to look up those games once there’s a good way to look up by game number, so I can see what you tried and how it all worked out. I remain surprised that the effect is so profound, it doesn’t seem like it should shift the theater so much compared to other methods; and if just the russians being there for a turn or two is enough to really change the theater, I’m surprised there isn’t a stronger effect from other bids that put more in the theater in general. I must be underestimating how fast it affects the Japan collapse and Japan’s sensitivity or some details about how it causes the theater to evolve.
The sites search feature seems to specifically not look in the league subforum, so I can’t use it to search for the specific games in question.
Have you been using the yunan stack against others? or do you wholly avoid it on both sides?
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