Warlords of Europe

[CG_Russ]

@FieldMarshalGames:

Any hope of a new or revised release of your other AAA related expansions?

Hope? Yes, some but not much and not soon. Hopefully we’ll reprint Warlords first, in larger numbers (current run is 2000). Then, we’ve got some new titles we’d like to see happen. But Operation Barbarossa and A House Divided The Brothers War are both pretty good candidates to re-imagine into full plastic piece games somewhere in the unknown future, all predicated on the success of Warlords.

Thanks all for the welcome and encouragement. I too am looking forward to seeing pics of those painted Warlords pieces.

[Guest]

@CG_Russ:

@FieldMarshalGames:

Any hope of a new or revised release of your other AAA related expansions?

Hope? Yes, some but not much and not soon. Hopefully we’ll reprint Warlords first, in larger numbers (current run is 2000). Then, we’ve got some new titles we’d like to see happen. But Operation Barbarossa and A House Divided The Brothers War are both pretty good candidates to re-imagine into full plastic piece games somewhere in the unknown future, all predicated on the success of Warlords.

Thanks all for the welcome and encouragement. I too am looking forward to seeing pics of those painted Warlords pieces.

What about Conquest of the Pacific?

[Flashman]

'fraid I don’t much care for the borders - NORTHumbria reaching to the channel?

I was meaning to do my own map, with historical borders and heraldry (my speciality).

[Flashman]

How Blighty should look; except maybe Northumbria should be forest?

[Imperious Leader]

Flashman:

make the proper roundels for these nations based on 100 years war.

I am making them and they will look like shields ( coat of arms)

Make one for each section ( total 6)

I know you have some knowledge of this period. re-naming the territories offers nothing because the map is already done.

I am gonna make some nifty house rules:

1. black death
2. adding kings
3. fleets
4. alternative mercenary rules
5. crusades
6. neutral armies
7. ?

[CG_Russ]

Conquest of the Pacific is probably down lower on the list because it’s just 2 players.

–-

I had a tough time finding a good “all encompassing” place name for the Northumbria fief (because there isn’t one that I could find). But, we needed that fief to reach as far southward as it does so that it could be “adjacent” to the Champagne fief. I tweaked the shape of pretty much every historical area to fit the map that we had been test playing for a decade*, which was originally a total abstraction not based in any real historical period. But it was fun for gameplay, which always trumped historical accuracy. Warlords is not a simulation, but an abstraction that does somewhat fit into the fractured 1200AD political landscape (for instance, there were obviously a lot more than 12 castles in Europe…the number that comes with the game). We hope the gamers will agree that it plays well, and we hope the historians can suspend their disbelief for a few hours to enjoy a game.

When you do tweak the map yourselves, I suggest you try to keep the same fiefs adjacent to each other as in the original. A lot of care went into making sure the most common starting castle fiefs for the 4 corner kingdoms are spaced fairly, up/down/left/right/diagonally. Though the map is a visual rectangle, the movement spaces make more of a logical square. This way top/bottom players would not be encouraged to fight each other more than left/right players simply due to map imbalance.

*When I say fit, I really mean match the adjacencies of the old paper/pencil posterboard, and not the actual shapes.

[Imperious Leader]

Not to sidetrack this discussion, but on your Barbarossa game the site talks about optional rules but these are not found. Can you reprint them here or in another thread?

I play that game and i find it really fun. I hope you can redo that game next using FMG pieces ( they are redoing the entire line of AA style pieces)

A nice map of the 1941-45 conflict on thick cardboard and nice tokens… people would pay big bucks for that.

[allworkandnoclay]

@Imperious:

Flashman:

make the proper roundels for these nations based on 100 years war.

I am making them and they will look like shields ( coat of arms)

Make one for each section ( total 6)

I know you have some knowledge of this period. re-naming the territories offers nothing because the map is already done.

I am gonna make some nifty house rules:

1. black death
2. adding kings
3. fleets
4. alternative mercenary rules
5. crusades
6. neutral armies
7. ?

I’m fooling around with adding my “Age of Mythology” miniatures to the base set of this game. Not sure what angle to take yet but it should be interesting.

[Guest]

@allworkandnoclay:

I’m fooling around with adding my “Age of Mythology” miniatures to the base set of this game. Not sure what angle to take yet but it should be interesting.

Are you going to paint those too.

[allworkandnoclay]

@Brain:

@allworkandnoclay:

I’m fooling around with adding my “Age of Mythology” miniatures to the base set of this game. Not sure what angle to take yet but it should be interesting.

Are you going to paint those too.

It’s #8 on the list heh. ‘War of the Rings’ is next.

[Guest]

@allworkandnoclay:

It’s #8 on the list heh. ‘War of the Rings’ is next.

Have you seen the collector’s edition of War of the Ring?

[allworkandnoclay]

@Brain:

@allworkandnoclay:

It’s #8 on the list heh. ‘War of the Rings’ is next.

Have you seen the collector’s edition of War of the Ring?

Yea - my paint job will be better than those. I also plan on sculpting my own figures for the game (Gollem, Gandolf the White, etc) and a few of the cities/strongholds from the game.

…But back on topic - Warlords of Europe: awesome game.

[Flashman]

By Hundred Years War, I assume you mean the period circa 1337 to 1453.  A lot changed in this period, for example the Kings of England quartered their arms with those of France when they claimed the French Crown.

It’s really anachronistic to describe these powers as “nations” at this time, as they were really more like extensions of Royal Courts, which frequently cut across ethnic and language boundaries.

I appreciate the need for game balance in map design, but my interest in history and board games go hand in hand, and for me as primarily a historian there should always be a way to accommodate historical accuracy into the game without ending up playing on a chessboard.  I live in Northumbria, and the idea of it bordering Champagne to me is rather like Iowa bordering Japan.

Attached an example of the heraldic flags I draw relevant to the HYW, though you’ll be aware that WOE is set in a rather earlier period.

For me the depiction of this era as an elaborate Risk variant misses out the most interesting element of medieval politics - you couldn’t just walk into a neighbour’s territory and take it over by force.  There had to be some kind of legal claim, usually one based on blood, i.e. hereditary descent.  This is what my Warriors of the Roses system does; it provides a justification for violence.  A European version would be possible; the nearest I’ve seen to this is Blood Royal, but that involved too much paperwork.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/248/blood-royale

My system tracks the dynastic side of things purely with cards.

[Imperious Leader]

these are only English. need all the others including Russia and italy

[Flashman]

Mmmm, problem is - what is “Italy” at this time?

The Italian nation didn’t exist until 1870.

Castille and Aragon didn’t unite (note: a dynastic union, not a conquest) until the 15th century, long after this game is set.  Of course for game purposes it’s convenient to retro-create modern states, but it’s impossible to create accurate heraldry for fictional entities.

The modern arms of a united Spain quarter the arms of the various constituent Kingdoms, but quartered arms won’t show up too well on smallish shieldels.

France changed it’s arms circ 1400 from azure semee of lilies or to azure 3 lillies or.

Some old French flags of mine - need redoing.

Note that these are 15th C, so only 3 lillies and the flags are now square.

Or would you prefer 3 croissants or?  :wink:

[Flashman]

This is a reasonable map of the period when the HYW began - you can see the problem with “Italy”.

http://historymedren.about.com/library/atlas/natmapeur1346.htm

You could reasonably use Castille for Spain, i.e

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Castile_Arms.svg

Denmark:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:COA_of_Denmark.svg

(use yellow instead of the rather silly “gold”.)

Germany (HRE):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holy_Roman_Empire_Arms-single_head.svg

(note the Eagle became double-headed after 1368)

Russia at this time was a host of petty kingdoms; but the genesis of the Russian state lay in the Rulers of Muscovy whose arms were:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Moscow.svg

or if you prefer Kiev take your pick of these:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Coats_of_arms_of_Kievan_Rus

Hungary, House of Arpad is barry of 8 gules and argent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hungary_Arms.svg

As for “Latin Empire”; this is presumably the late Byzantines, barely clinging on to Constantinople:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palaiologos-Dynasty-Eagle.svg

In the game officially (as it’s in an earlier period) this may refer to the Crusader Empire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Empire

For Italy maybe the Kingdom of Sicily, but this was a variant on the Aragonese arms since Sicily was ruled by a junior branch of Aragon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aragon-Sicily_Arms.svg

Charles of Anjou founded the Kingdom of Naples, but the arms were again those of a junior branch, this time of the French house. He later impaled these with the arms of Jerusalem to form this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Armoiries_Anjou_Jérusalem.svg

But it really isn’t remotely Italian.

Lastly you might consider the arms of Savoy, whose Duke founded the modern Kingdom of Italy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_duche_fr_Savoie.svg

Bear in mind that there is a difference between “national” flags and the “arms” of the Kingdom; for example the FLAG of England is the Saint George Cross, while the ARMS of the Kingdom of England are the 3 gold lions on red (though in fact they’re actually derived from the lions on the arms of Normandy, Aquitaine and Anjou from where the medieval Kings of England originated, so they are really French lions.)

Edit:

Do you know what the figs you intend to use are, or are there pics of them anywhere?

I might be able to do some flags for the Warlord pieces to match the shieldels, or maybe to fly from the castle tops.

[Imperious Leader]

Each castle should have a flag on top and each “kingdom” would get some NA’s that give it flavor and not just another risk set of pieces.

The flag would be for the starting castle and id like to use tokens rather than leaving a garrison ( like risk). BY the term Italy, i just mean the locality of what existed in that area, though like the holy roman empire, it was probably a fragmented assortment of fiefdoms.  Perhaps at some points in the game players would have to send troops to fight the crusades and Italy or another might control this expedition.

[crsluggo]

Hey Russ,

I am curious, do you still have any copies of High Ground available? By the way I love Warlords & I think you guys at Conquest Gaming did some great things with the basic A&A turn system.

[Flashman]

I know the game is called Warlords of Europe, but I’d also be tempted to extend the map to include the entire Mediterranean seaboard with 3 or 4 Muslim Kingdoms added.  You could always make these areas off-limits if it makes the map too big.

I would also tend to make Poland a Kingdom, rather than the very fragmented Russian states, unless extending the map further east.  Especially so for a “100 Years War Period” game, where it can be merged into Poland-Lithuania:

Poland’s arms are of course:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_arms_of_Poland-official.png

Reading through the rules I seem to have missed something:

If a player without a castle captures a Warlord, do they

1. Carry him around in a wicker cage,

2. Behead him in the market square,

3. Send him home to Mom riding an a** backwards.

For expanding with plastic figs HaT’s El Cid series are looking pretty good, especially if wanting to add Muslim players:

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/FirstLook.aspx?id=1440

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/FirstLook.aspx?id=1459

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/FirstLook.aspx?id=1467

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=1451

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=1436

These sets are just being produced; there really haven’t been reasonable figs for this period until now.

Edit: Apparently I’m not allowed to say “ass”, by which of course I meant a horse/donkey crossbreed.  Perhaps this means something else to you Americans.

Italy really should not be a player Kingdom, just a collection of independent Feifs.  Even Aragon would be more viable as a major power.

[Flashman]

Found some Moor.  :wink:

http://www.hat.com/Curr2/Bx8215AndHC/Bx8215AndHCm.html

http://www.hat.com/Curr2/Bx8214AndLC/Bx8214AndLCm.html

http://www.hat.com/Prev/Elcidc/Sp_com.html

http://www.hat.com/Prev/Elcidc/Mo_com.html

That last set has a very nice ass in it.