@fasthard said in L26 BM4 fasthard(X) vs Amon-Sul(L+24):
@Amon-Sul you want action, you’ll get action ;-)
Turn complete!
:O
Let s rock and roll xD
TripleA Turn Summary for game: WW2 Path to Victory
Game History
Round: 8
Purchase Units - ANZAC
ANZAC buy 1 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;
Combat Move - ANZAC
1 infantry moved from South Australia to Western Australia
ANZAC take Western Australia from Japanese
Combat - ANZAC
Non Combat Move - ANZAC
2 fighters moved from New South Wales to Solomon Islands
1 transport moved from 83 Sea Zone to 78 Sea Zone
1 cruiser moved from 27 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
1 fighter moved from Solomon Islands to 50 Sea Zone
Place Units - ANZAC
1 infantry placed in New South Wales
Turn Complete - ANZAC
Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 5
Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 64 Sea Zone. Rolls: 2,4,1,6
Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 65 Sea Zone. Rolls: 5,5
Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 55 Sea Zone. Rolls: 6,6,5,6,2,2,6,4,5,5,1,1,3,1,1,3,4,5,3,6,6,4,5,3,3,5,6,1,3,1,6,4,1
ANZAC collect 4 PUs (5 lost to blockades); end with 4 PUs
Objective ANZAC 3 Pacific Supply Lines: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 7 PUs
Combat Move - French
Turn Complete - French
Combat Hit Differential Summary :
TripleA Turn Summary for game: WW2 Path to Victory
Game History
Round: 9
Research Technology - Germans
Purchase Units - Germans
Germans repair damage of 2x factory_major; Remaining resources: 67 PUs;
Germans buy 6 artilleries, 1 fighter and 11 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;
Combat Move - Germans
1 armour moved from Archangel to Karelia
Germans take Karelia from Russians
1 armour moved from Karelia to Archangel
17 armour and 7 mech_infantrys moved from Russia to Samara
Germans take Samara from Russians
24 infantry moved from Russia to Samara
5 artilleries moved from Russia to Samara
4 armour and 2 mech_infantrys moved from Smolensk to Samara
1 infantry moved from Ukraine to Rostov
Germans take Rostov from Russians
2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
1 infantry moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
2 bombers moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from France to Holland Belgium
1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 116 Sea Zone to Holland Belgium
1 infantry moved from Vologda to Archangel
1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Northern Belarus to Leningrad
Combat - Germans
Battle in Holland Belgium
Germans attack with 2 artilleries, 2 bombers, 3 fighters, 5 infantry and 3 tactical_bombers
Americans defend with 2 armour, 2 artilleries, 1 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys
Germans roll dice for 2 artilleries, 2 bombers, 3 fighters, 5 infantry and 3 tactical_bombers in Holland Belgium, round 2 : 6/15 hits, 6.33 expected hits
Americans roll dice for 2 armour, 2 artilleries, 1 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys in Holland Belgium, round 2 : 2/7 hits, 3.00 expected hits
2 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Holland Belgium
1 armour owned by the Americans, 1 infantry owned by the Americans, 2 artilleries owned by the Americans and 2 mech_infantrys owned by the Americans lost in Holland Belgium
Germans roll dice for 2 artilleries, 2 bombers, 3 fighters, 3 infantry and 3 tactical_bombers in Holland Belgium, round 3 : 7/13 hits, 6.00 expected hits
Americans roll dice for 1 armour in Holland Belgium, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.50 expected hits
1 armour owned by the Americans lost in Holland Belgium
Germans win, taking Holland Belgium from Americans with 2 artilleries, 2 bombers, 3 fighters, 3 infantry and 3 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 27
Casualties for Germans: 2 infantry
Casualties for Americans: 2 armour, 2 artilleries, 1 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys
Non Combat Move - Germans
2 bombers moved from Holland Belgium to Romania
1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Southern France
3 infantry moved from Western Germany to France
1 fighter moved from Holland Belgium to 94 Sea Zone
1 carrier moved from 98 Sea Zone to 94 Sea Zone
1 cruiser moved from 98 Sea Zone to 94 Sea Zone
1 battleship moved from 98 Sea Zone to 94 Sea Zone
1 destroyer moved from 98 Sea Zone to 94 Sea Zone
2 transports moved from 97 Sea Zone to 94 Sea Zone
1 fighter moved from Holland Belgium to Southern Italy
1 fighter moved from Holland Belgium to France
1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Germany to Western Germany
1 tactical_bomber moved from Holland Belgium to 116 Sea Zone
2 tactical_bombers moved from Holland Belgium to Western Germany
1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Yugoslavia to Northern Italy
1 infantry moved from Bessarabia to Ukraine
2 infantry moved from Romania to Bessarabia
1 aaGun moved from Northern Belarus to Leningrad
1 aaGun moved from Russia to Samara
Place Units - Germans
1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in France
2 artilleries and 6 infantry placed in Western Germany
1 fighter placed in Western Germany
1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Russia
1 artillery and 1 infantry placed in Romania
1 artillery placed in Western Germany
Germans undo move 6.
Germans undo move 4.
1 infantry placed in Germany
1 artillery placed in Western Germany
1 artillery and 1 infantry placed in Russia
Turn Complete - Germans
Germans collect 56 PUs; end with 56 PUs
Objective Germans 7 Control of Balkans: Germans met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 59 PUs
Objective Germans 2 Control Stalingrad Or Leningrad Or Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 10 PUs; end with 69 PUs
Combat Hit Differential Summary :
Americans regular : -1.50
Germans regular : 0.67
TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: WW2 Path to Victory
Game History
Round: 9
Combat Move - Russians
1 fighter and 1 infantry moved from Northern Manchuria to Korea
1 cruiser, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine moved from 118 Sea Zone to 116 Sea Zone
3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Norway to 116 Sea Zone
2 fighters and 1 infantry moved from Stalingrad to Rostov
Combat - Russians
Combat Hit Differential Summary :
Scramble from W Germany?
@simon33 Hm, yes, difficult one. It was bit stupid to forget about that lurking Soviet navy still there.
Scramble all three, yes, let’s see what happens.
TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: WW2 Path to Victory
Game History
Round: 9
Combat Move - Russians
1 fighter and 1 infantry moved from Northern Manchuria to Korea
1 cruiser, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine moved from 118 Sea Zone to 116 Sea Zone
3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Norway to 116 Sea Zone
2 fighters and 1 infantry moved from Stalingrad to Rostov
Combat - Russians
Germans scrambles 3 units out of Western Germany to defend against the attack in 116 Sea Zone
Battle in 116 Sea Zone
Russians attack with 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 3 fighters, 1 submarine and 1 tactical_bomber
Germans defend with 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 fighter, 2 submarines, 3 tactical_bombers and 5 transports
Russians roll dice for 1 submarine in 116 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
Units damaged: 1 carrier owned by the Germans
Russians roll dice for 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber in 116 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/6 hits, 3.00 expected hits
Germans roll dice for 2 submarines in 116 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0.33 expected hits
Germans roll dice for 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 fighter, 3 tactical_bombers and 5 transports in 116 Sea Zone, round 2 : 2/6 hits, 2.67 expected hits
1 submarine owned by the Russians and 1 destroyer owned by the Russians lost in 116 Sea Zone
Germans roll dice for 2 submarines in 116 Sea Zone, round 3 : 2/2 hits, 0.33 expected hits
1 cruiser owned by the Russians lost in 116 Sea Zone
Russians roll dice for 3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber in 116 Sea Zone, round 3 : 3/4 hits, 2.17 expected hits
Combat Hit Differential Summary :
Germans regular : 0.67
Russians regular : -1.50
Assumed that the subs will still fight in the second round and that the Germans will tip the CV in the first one.
OOL now?
@simon33 I can’t open the savegame, I am getting an error. But I guess you can take the maximum damage approach.

Does that help?
Your subs hit and sunk my Cruiser.
Max D = sink CV, DD and a tac.
Is the carrier damaged? If not, then sink the carrier and dd.
No, the sub hit and damaged the CV. Unless you want to take that hit on the subs.
Yes, you are right. Not knowing how the first round of Russian planes will hit (miss everything), I would have left the subs then.
So, do as you suggested.
@nikola1975 said in PtV L25 Simon33 (Allies) vs Nikola1975 (Axis +13) game 2:
Yes, you are right. Not knowing how the first round of Russian planes will hit (miss everything), I would have left the subs then.
So, do as you suggested.
Technically, you are allowed to know how that planes rolled before assigning casualties since you had a DD.
@simon33 Hm. Ok. It’s a bit difficult to understand without seeing what is happening.
In that case, sink the sub in round 1, then in round 2, sink CV and one dd.
TripleA Turn Summary for game: WW2 Path to Victory
Game History
Round: 9
Combat Move - Russians
1 fighter and 1 infantry moved from Northern Manchuria to Korea
1 cruiser, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine moved from 118 Sea Zone to 116 Sea Zone
3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Norway to 116 Sea Zone
2 fighters and 1 infantry moved from Stalingrad to Rostov
Combat - Russians
Germans scrambles 3 units out of Western Germany to defend against the attack in 116 Sea Zone
Battle in 116 Sea Zone
Russians attack with 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 3 fighters, 1 submarine and 1 tactical_bomber
Germans defend with 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 fighter, 2 submarines, 3 tactical_bombers and 5 transports
Russians roll dice for 1 submarine in 116 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
Units damaged: 1 carrier owned by the Germans
Russians roll dice for 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber in 116 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/6 hits, 3.00 expected hits
Germans roll dice for 2 submarines in 116 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0.33 expected hits
Germans roll dice for 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 fighter, 3 tactical_bombers and 5 transports in 116 Sea Zone, round 2 : 2/6 hits, 2.67 expected hits
1 submarine owned by the Russians and 1 destroyer owned by the Russians lost in 116 Sea Zone
Germans roll dice for 2 submarines in 116 Sea Zone, round 3 : 2/2 hits, 0.33 expected hits
1 cruiser owned by the Russians lost in 116 Sea Zone
Russians roll dice for 3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber in 116 Sea Zone, round 3 : 3/4 hits, 2.17 expected hits
Germans roll dice for 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 fighter, 3 tactical_bombers and 5 transports in 116 Sea Zone, round 3 : 4/6 hits, 2.67 expected hits
1 tactical_bomber owned by the Russians and 3 fighters owned by the Russians lost in 116 Sea Zone
1 destroyer owned by the Germans, 1 carrier owned by the Germans and 1 tactical_bomber owned by the Germans lost in 116 Sea Zone
Germans win with 1 fighter, 2 submarines, 2 tactical_bombers and 5 transports remaining. Battle score for attacker is -31
Casualties for Russians: 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 3 fighters, 1 submarine and 1 tactical_bomber
Casualties for Germans: 1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 tactical_bomber
Turning on Edit Mode
EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to 116 Sea Zone: 1 carrier
EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from 116 Sea Zone: 1 submarine
EDIT: Changing unit hit damage for these Germans owned units to: carrier = 1
EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
Battle in Rostov
Russians attack with 2 fighters and 1 infantry
Germans defend with 1 infantry
Russians roll dice for 2 fighters and 1 infantry in Rostov, round 2 : 2/3 hits, 1.17 expected hits
Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Rostov, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Rostov
1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Rostov
Russians win with 2 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry
Battle in Korea
Russians attack with 1 fighter and 1 infantry
Japanese defend with 1 infantry
Russians roll dice for 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Korea, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
Japanese roll dice for 1 infantry in Korea, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Korea
1 infantry owned by the Japanese lost in Korea
Russians win with 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
Moving scrambled unit from 116 Sea Zone back to originating territory: Western Germany
Moving scrambled unit from 116 Sea Zone back to originating territory: Western Germany
1 tactical_bomber owned by the Germans forced to land in Western Germany
Non Combat Move - Russians
2 artilleries and 1 infantry moved from Finland to Norway
1 aaGun, 3 artilleries, 3 infantry and 1 marine moved from Finland to Vyborg
2 fighters moved from Rostov to Stalingrad
1 mech_infantry moved from Timguska to Yakut S.S.R.
2 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Evenkiyskiy to Yakut S.S.R.
3 aaGuns, 2 armour, 5 artilleries, 2 fighters, 43 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Stalingrad to Northern Caucasus
1 fighter moved from Korea to Northern Manchuria
Turn Complete - Russians
Combat Hit Differential Summary :
Japanese regular : 0.67
Germans regular : 2.67
Russians regular : -0.33
You can just go Max D.
I think I’ve made a boo boo there.
TripleA Turn Summary for game: WW2 Path to Victory
Game History
Round: 9
Purchase Units - Japanese
Japanese buy 5 artilleries, 2 fighters, 11 infantry and 1 submarine; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 6 SuicideAttackTokens;
Combat Move - Japanese
1 submarine moved from 65 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
2 submarines moved from 64 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
1 tactical_bomber moved from 132 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
1 tactical_bomber moved from French Indo China to 50 Sea Zone
1 fighter moved from 20 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
1 armour moved from Southern Manchuria to Jehol
Japanese take Jehol from Chinese
1 armour moved from Jehol to Southern Manchuria
1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Southern Manchuria to Kiangsu
1 transport moved from 20 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
2 infantry moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 20 Sea Zone
2 infantry moved from 20 Sea Zone to Kiangsu
1 infantry moved from Kwangtung to Hunan
Japanese take Hunan from Chinese
1 armour moved from Eastern India to Western India
Japanese take Western India from UK_Pacific
1 armour moved from Western India to Eastern India
1 transport moved from 20 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 20 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from 20 Sea Zone to Shantung
2 battleships moved from 55 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
8 submarines moved from 55 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
5 destroyers moved from 55 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
5 carriers moved from 55 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
2 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers moved from 55 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
Combat - Japanese
Battle in Shantung
Battle in Kiangsu
Japanese attack with 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
Chinese defend with 2 infantry
Japanese roll dice for 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in Kiangsu, round 2 : 1/4 hits, 1.50 expected hits
Chinese roll dice for 2 infantry in Kiangsu, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
1 infantry owned by the Chinese lost in Kiangsu
Japanese roll dice for 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in Kiangsu, round 3 : 1/4 hits, 1.50 expected hits
Chinese roll dice for 1 infantry in Kiangsu, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
1 infantry owned by the Chinese lost in Kiangsu
Japanese win, taking Shantung from Chinese, taking Kiangsu from Chinese with 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
Casualties for Chinese: 2 infantry
Battle in 50 Sea Zone
Japanese attack with 2 battleships, 5 carriers, 5 destroyers, 3 fighters, 11 submarines and 5 tactical_bombers
Americans defend with 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 destroyers, 7 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports; ANZAC defend with 1 cruiser and 2 fighters
Japanese roll dice for 11 submarines in 50 Sea Zone, round 2 : 3/11 hits, 3.67 expected hits
Units damaged: 3 carriers owned by the Americans
Japanese roll dice for 2 battleships, 5 carriers, 5 destroyers, 3 fighters and 5 tactical_bombers in 50 Sea Zone, round 2 : 10/15 hits, 7.50 expected hits
Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the Americans
Americans roll dice for 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers, 9 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports in 50 Sea Zone, round 2 : 13/19 hits, 9.17 expected hits
Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the Japanese
2 carriers owned by the Japanese and 8 submarines owned by the Japanese lost in 50 Sea Zone
2 destroyers owned by the Americans and 5 carriers owned by the Americans lost in 50 Sea Zone
Japanese roll dice for 3 submarines in 50 Sea Zone, round 3 : 0/3 hits, 1.00 expected hits
Japanese roll dice for 2 battleships, 3 carriers, 5 destroyers, 3 fighters and 5 tactical_bombers in 50 Sea Zone, round 3 : 7/15 hits, 7.50 expected hits
Americans roll dice for 9 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber in 50 Sea Zone, round 3 : 5/10 hits, 6.50 expected hits
Americans roll dice for 1 battleship, 1 cruiser and 2 transports in 50 Sea Zone, round 3 : 2/2 hits, 1.17 expected hits
2 tactical_bombers owned by the Japanese, 1 carrier owned by the Japanese, 1 destroyer owned by the Japanese and 2 submarines owned by the Japanese lost in 50 Sea Zone
1 cruiser owned by the ANZAC, 1 tactical_bomber owned by the Americans and 5 fighters owned by the Americans lost in 50 Sea Zone
Japanese roll dice for 1 submarine in 50 Sea Zone, round 4 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
Japanese roll dice for 2 battleships, 2 carriers, 4 destroyers, 3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers in 50 Sea Zone, round 4 : 5/12 hits, 6.17 expected hits
Americans roll dice for 4 fighters in 50 Sea Zone, round 4 : 2/4 hits, 2.67 expected hits
Americans roll dice for 1 battleship and 2 transports in 50 Sea Zone, round 4 : 1/1 hits, 0.67 expected hits
1 tactical_bomber owned by the Japanese, 1 destroyer owned by the Japanese and 1 submarine owned by the Japanese lost in 50 Sea Zone
2 fighters owned by the ANZAC, 2 fighters owned by the Americans and 1 battleship owned by the Americans lost in 50 Sea Zone
2 transports owned by the Americans lost in 50 Sea Zone
Japanese win with 2 battleships, 2 carriers, 3 destroyers, 3 fighters and 2 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 77
Casualties for Japanese: 3 carriers, 2 destroyers, 11 submarines and 3 tactical_bombers
Casualties for Americans: 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 destroyers, 7 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports
Casualties for ANZAC: 1 cruiser and 2 fighters
Non Combat Move - Japanese
1 tactical_bomber moved from 50 Sea Zone to New Guinea
1 marine moved from Malaya to 132 Sea Zone
2 infantry moved from Malaya to 132 Sea Zone
2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 132 Sea Zone to 40 Sea Zone
1 transport moved from 40 Sea Zone to 39 Sea Zone
2 infantry moved from Shan State to 39 Sea Zone
2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 39 Sea Zone to 40 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from Malaya to Shan State
1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from French Indo China to Shan State
1 artillery moved from Burma to Eastern India
4 infantry moved from 40 Sea Zone to Eastern India
1 cruiser and 1 marine moved from 132 Sea Zone to 40 Sea Zone
1 marine moved from 40 Sea Zone to Eastern India
1 carrier moved from 132 Sea Zone to 40 Sea Zone
1 transport moved from 132 Sea Zone to 20 Sea Zone
1 fighter moved from Kiangsu to 20 Sea Zone
1 tactical_bomber moved from Kiangsu to Southern Manchuria
1 transport moved from 20 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 20 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from 20 Sea Zone to Southern Manchuria
1 submarine moved from 7 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
2 submarines moved from 6 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
1 transport moved from 55 Sea Zone to 45 Sea Zone
1 transport moved from 55 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
1 transport moved from 55 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
1 bomber moved from Japan to French Indo China
2 artilleries moved from Kwangsi to French Indo China
1 infantry moved from Fukien to Kwangtung
1 transport moved from 132 Sea Zone to 20 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from Fukien to 21 Sea Zone
1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 21 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from 6 Sea Zone to Japan
1 transport moved from 21 Sea Zone to 132 Sea Zone
Place Units - Japanese
1 artillery and 2 fighters placed in Eastern India
1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in French Indo China
1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Malaya
2 artilleries and 1 infantry placed in Southern Manchuria
6 infantry placed in Japan
1 submarine placed in 6 Sea Zone
Turn Complete - Japanese
Japanese collect 60 PUs; end with 60 PUs
Objective Japanese 6 Home Islands: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 63 PUs
Objective Japanese 4 Control Dutch East Indies: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 68 PUs
Objective Japanese 3 Control Honolulu Or Sydney Or Calcutta Or Western United States: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 73 PUs
Combat Hit Differential Summary :
Chinese regular : -1.00
Americans regular : 2.83
Japanese regular : -2.17