@Gibsonrick81 I’m hoping to get around to it soon. Worse case, I may not have it till thanksgiving. Just because then I will have a lot more time on my hands for a few days.
What is the Purpose of Minor Axis Infantry in Stalingrad.
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@Imperious-Leader I’m not understanding your comment. Can you explain what you mean.
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@Faramir They are in the game for a combination of historical accuracy and game balance
With regards to balance, ~100+ playtest results can speak to the importance of their being weaker than the German pieces. If all German INF from the initial starting position could force-multiply upon entering the city Germany would win too easily. At a high-level, Soviets already have a relatively difficult time holding until Uranus in the base scenario as-is.@Faramir said in What is the Purpose of Minor Axis Infantry in Stalingrad.:
It complecates the game for no purpose.
I’m by no means a defender of overly complicated rules (G40 is my least favorite game in all of A&A and I also did not like NA’s bloat), but I don’t think an Infantry that cannot utilize one rule is particularly complicated. The Soviet Rocket unit, the various rules regarding supplies and how bombers can interact with the supply crates, the multiple mechanics regarding keeping Stalingrad supplied over the Volga, and Operation Uranus are all much more complex than the Minor Axis INF. It seems like a strange hill to die on to me.
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The minor axis units are in the game because someone wanted them represented. Balance is not the reason as if they were German units the number of them could have been adjusted to make it balanced. I think it would have been better if either they were not included, or they were fleshed out more to allow a third player. As is, they complicate the game for no real purpose.
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@Faramir Given that I was on the playtest team for the game, I can assure you the pieces are there for balance and only not because “someone wanted them represented.”
EDIT: To elaborate/clarify in case my comment comes off as dismissive/rude, the number of German pieces in the initial setup were adjusted multiple times during the earlier phases of testing because it was found that Germany was winning too often. Demoting a few German INF to “minor Axis” Infantry was seen as a middle-ground approach.
EDIT #2: My initial post was unnecessarily harshly worded and if you read it before I edited it, I apologize. I’ve been on the opposite side of the looking glass (criticizing what I see as needlessly complicated design elements in the A&A games) before so I should have been more understanding of your viewpoint. Hopefully the explanation I gave in my first edit at least clarifies things for you a bit.
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@DoManMacgee @Faramir @SuperbattleshipYamato I do like the idea of the Minor Axis but they are to boring. I would love for them to be an actual 3rd player. There are a few issues with them. A lot of them being historical accuracy reasons.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower I think having them as a 3rd player for a game of this scale would cause more harm than good. Giving the minor axis autonomy to act freely would make them seem more competent than they actually were IRL and would let the Axis player set up can-opener type plays, which would be difficult to balance around.
If it were a broader Eastern Front game where the Western Allies are represented somehow (lend lease troops, partisans? I don’t know), I could see it.
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@DoManMacgee True, so if we are not making them a third player we at least need them to have a reason for minimal purchase and they need Mech’s, and a fighter or bomber. If you would like to know my reasoning for this let me know.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower But you cannot buy minor Axis INF in the game. They are there as a handicap against the Germans. They are not supposed to be beneficial in any way.
For the sake of the discussion, I’ll hear your reasoning of course.
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The reason for the Axis Minor units are threefold.
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To represent the other forces in the area that were not German units.
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To increase the firepower, especially defensively, of the Axis on the Regional Map.
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To reduce the firepower of the Axis on the Stalingrad Map.
Much like the 2 additional ANZAC troops in Egypt for Global 1940, the Axis Minor units help defend an area but they do not significantly increase the offensive firepower of that same area.
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@DoManMacgee This would probably require major changes. But here is my case. One of my main reasons for this is historical accuracy. A fairly large amount of Romanian troops arrived after the setup. Specifically it would be on the region board. There actually was a decent amount of Minor Axis reinforcements after the starting date for Race to Stalingrad, 99.9% were all Romanian Reinforcements.
Ground Forces 3rd Romanian Army Arrived early September 1942, transferred from Crimea and the Caucasus. Took positions northwest of Stalingrad along the Don River. By November, it had ~152,500 Romanians + 11,200 Germans. Source: Wikipedia – Romanian armies in the Battle of Stalingrad 4th Romanian Army Arrived late September 1942, deployed south of Stalingrad. Fielded ~75,600 men. Source: Wikipedia – Romanian armies in the Battle of Stalingrad Both of these armies were reinforcements arriving after Aug 21. Air Force Reinforcements Sept 16, 1942: Romanian 7th Fighter Group arrived to support the 3rd Romanian & 6th German Armies. Sept 25, 1942: Romanian 5th Bomber Group arrived. Oct 4, 1942: Romanian 1st Bomber, 8th Fighter, 6th Fighter-Bomber, 3rd Bomber Groups all arrived. Source: Wikipedia – Romanian armies in the Battle of Stalingrad No Italian or Hungarian Reinforcements After Aug 21, 1942 in Stalingrad Area Hungarian 2nd Army stayed far north (Voronezh). Italian 8th Army deployed on the middle Don (northwest of Stalingrad), not in the city sector.
They did not reinforce Stalingrad itself after Aug 21 only the areas around it. I understand that it’s probably not a smart idea to make a major change like this because it will change a lot of the game. But my point is whether it’s a good idea or not to make them more important, it is historical though.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower The only problem with this is that, as per the game, Germany does not buy/place reinforcements until Winter Storm (later in the game). That decision had nothing to do with balance as far as I can tell. It was just a fundamental part of the game before testing even began.
As for the lack of air units for Minor Axis, it’s probably just because they didn’t want to make the extra sculpts/rules. Germany already has decent number of air units, but unless the gear they had was significantly different from that of the Minor Axis I see no reason to differentiate them.
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@DoManMacgee I agree with your points. Ah so maybe the Minor Axis are the only units you can purchase until winter storm. This is just a small idea but this is a way were they could be actually reasonable to buy. It may ruin balance.
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@DoManMacgee I think the Minor Axis had a mix of German/Italian planes and maybe some other’s. But they did have enough of planes to at least warrant for one.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower If you can find Yellow HGB sculpts for the pieces that don’t exist in the game you can always house-rule it out. Buying the low-quality Romanians as your only pre-winter storm purchase option could also be something that (probably) wouldn’t affect balance much.
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@DoManMacgee I was just going to use Italy pieces from G40.
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