@Krieghund thank you everyone for their time. We appreciate the clarity…good to know it is a legal move we made on our last game.
Bid for both Scenarios
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As the title says, what bid range do you find yourself wanting for both scenarios?
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@Daaras Hello, ive played around 13 games so far using all optional rules except for the first 2 matches, ~9 of those were RLP and the rest was Operation Torch. I dont feel like either scenario needs a bid tbh, both felt pretty balanced to me, with RLP being harder for the allies (Especially pre round 7) and Torch being harder for the axis. However i dont think either scenario is impossibly difficult. Ive managed to win both scenarios as both sides, sometimes you need a little luck but with the new supply/convoy systems there are so many ways to influence the game even when it looks like its over.
What about yourself? Would you like a bid and how would you use it?
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@Herr_B I have only played a few games, mostly Torch for time purposes. My friend group wants a bid to play allies in Torch.
I think it’s mostly a strategic error on their behalf but we need more data. I do keep smoking them with axis though, so i can kind of understand their point.
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@Daaras A bid to play allies? I was expecting it to be the other way around lol. In my experience the axis are a bit harder to play in Torch, with the lack of axis units on the eastern side of the board tobruk is tricky to hold. However, i also think that if the allies fail to capture tobruk before round 3 the axis can make it really difficult to capture and more importantly, hold Tobruk. If that happens i think the allies are screwed. (At least on that side of the board) Is that whats been happening in your games? Are the british able to use malta at all?
But like you said, it might just be tactical errors thats costing them the win. Im thinking about how to use a bid for the allies in Torch, i dont think the americans need it, so maybe an extra destroyer or some extra units in the convoy zones leading to cairo? Bomber on cyprus? Still, i feel like there is a risk of overdoing it but if you keep smoking them you might just be better at strategy and throwing dice
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As a play tester I had two main goals.
- To find any “broken” strategies that would ruin the game. I can vouch that, over time, I and my fellow play testers found many strategies that broke the game and those results caused a revision in the rules, unit capabilities or initial placement to remove the broken strategy from the game. We hopefully found them all and eliminated them.
- Release the game with balanced scenarios where either side could win with no bid. I can say that I and my fellow play testers did not just “play” the game to see who would win in any given scenario. We would play a game as a team and discuss “Okay, if this is the right move for side A then what is the right move for side B?” That way it was our shared experience that fleshed out the scenarios and related strategies.
I can say, I feel we got it to the point that I would be happy to take either side in any scenario with no bid. Time will tell how good of a job we did.
As an aside, while I focused on the two items above, other play testers also were interested in:
- What was the “fun factor” in playing the game.
- What did the sculpts look like and which ones did we want included with the game.
- What did the map look like and how pretty it would look.
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@AndrewAAGamer @Herr_B I definitely think this is the most balanced AAA game I have ever played, and think everyone involved did a wonderful job. I would say all of my complaints are relatively superficial.
I am totally willing to believe my brothers are just bad lol. We’ve been playing with no bid, and just roll dice for sides and I keep coming up axis. I really need another game or two to really solidify my idea, but I was just curious as to what the forums thought.
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@AndrewAAGamer I think you guys did a very good job balancing the game. Just out of curiosity, would you be able/willing to share some of the “Broken” strategies that you guys eliminated or rules/setup that had to be changed? Idk if there is a NDA regarding playtesting? For example, i suspect the Benghazi convoy zone being 3 zones away from benghazi is very intentional, being able to deploy axis airpower straight to benghazi would be way too strong i think.
If you can’t/dont want to share thats fine since its kinda useless knowledge now anyway, you just got me curious. Big thanks to all the people involved, i think the game is amazing.
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There was an NDA. I think it was only for pre-release of the game but I have been purposefully being high level just in case.
I will ask the Project Manager if I am allowed to give any specifics.
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@AndrewAAGamer If you’re allowed, I would also love to hear about what was changed to balance it.
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@AndrewAAGamer said in Bid for both Scenarios:
There was an NDA. I think it was only for pre-release of the game but I have been purposefully being high level just in case.
I will ask the Project Manager if I am allowed to give any specifics.
Feel free to discuss @AndrewAAGamer
The reason the Benghazi Convoy Zone is so far away from the port is so that Malta fighters are able to interfere with it.
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Okay, the first thing I want to say is everything was intentional. Matt and Larry had a great base to start with but as we play tested, we found we had to change a great many of the parameters to make the game work.
Game Flavor: One of the main goals was to make the focus of the game a land campaign which was heavily influenced by logistics aka supply.
Broken Strategy: We soon found out that the players wanted to fight for the Med. By controlling the Med, it denied the opponent any reinforcements so he who controlled the Med won. We were having epic sea battles and a water-based arms race between the combatants. Since we did not want this to be a sea battle game, but a land battle game, that is where the limits on the number of sea units came from.
Broken Strategy: Another problem we discovered was air power was too powerful. One of the play testers invested heavily in axis fighters and bombers to take Cairo. Since none of us could figure out a counter to that strategy that is when we decided to also limit the number of air units in the game.
Only land units can be chipped out and now you know why.
Broken Strategy: Originally, there were more convoy zones, for example Tobruk had one. We found that, once Tobruk was taken by the Axis, that made it too easy for the Axis to bring up reinforcements quickly and overwhelm Cairo’s defense so we removed it. The whole idea was we wanted there to be a logistics problem for both the Axis and the Allies to fight over Cairo.
As for game balance we had to constantly make revisions as we improved our strategies:
- The stacking limits of Tunis and Cairo are directly related to how many units we decided it would be necessary to have a reasonable chance of holding. Originally, those territories had much lower stacking limits.
- The number of reinforcements coming through the Suez Canal. That was adjusted multiple times until we felt we had the right balance that Cairo had a chance to hold against an axis Rush versus giving them too many units to push the Axis back easily. This was determined by multiple playthroughs were Cairo first fell and fell again and then after revisions couldn’t be taken at all so more revisions were needed.
- The stacking limit of Malta was brought up as a solution to the problem of the British simply stacking it with so many units the Axis dared not attack it and limiting the number of supply tokens available to the island to force a need for constant resupply. We wanted it to be difficult, but not impossible, to keep Malta supplied to get their income booster.
I think every unit had a change made to it either by cost or abilities. For example, we would increase the attack firepower of a unit and then play test it to see if it was too powerful. (BTW, we purposefully made the German 88 gun a great weapon to match historically its capabilities but had to be careful it was not too powerful.)
How scout cars worked, how targeting worked and which units received it was constantly changed. One, Broken Strategy was to bomb the heck out of supply so we had to change how many units had the ability to target supply and how often to remove that strategy.
How the US entered the war and how the US convoy zones worked was changed multiple times too.
In essence, every aspect of the game as you see it now was brought about by multiple testers playing hundreds of games to test its balance. I am pleased you like the game and feel it is the most balanced Axis & Allies game out there. I do to.
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@AndrewAAGamer This behind the curtain stuff is really interesting to read, thanks for typing out your thoughts. My friends and I who play together appreciate how much care was put into this game, and I completely agree that it is the most balanced A&A game.
One other interesting thing about North Africa is that since units have different abilities like targeted attack (as well as the supply cost of each round of rolling and the ability of defenders to retreat), there is no battle calculator available (yet). While I use a calculator frequently on every other version, I’ve enjoyed not knowing my exact % win on large battles as it adds another layer of tension to the game. It adds some unpredictability for both sides to deal with, which I find to be very fun.
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@PGsquig @AndrewAAGamer I think the units having different abilities and costs is what makes it so much more fun. The German 88 should be one of the best units in any game, and I absolutely love it. The Tiger being amazing is fun as well.
I enjoy the Italian units being weaker on average, and the matilda being slow. It is an absolute chef’s kiss.
Thanks to all involved in the creation.
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Very interesting regarding the testing. Did you guys just email your moves back and forth then ? Kind of like Battlemap ?
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No, we did it live on Discord. So we were able to view the map at the same time, move pieces together and talk via an audio link. Sometimes 5-6 people at the same time.
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We use a tabletop game simulator called Screentop.
No rules enforcement, but you move your units on the playtest map, and chat with your foe via Discord. Roll digital dice. Works pretty well. -
Thanks Matt! I didn’t realize that was a different app since we were in Discord still and it opened from Discord.
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