Two Ideas for the Allies. What do you think?

[MaherC]

I’d really like to see how any of it matters.  I’ve never seen an allied victory, and once india falls, the japs can MATCH any buy the allies make.  on a long enough timeline, the japs win.  On a J1 attack, the US has one LC on the board that can make it to SZ6 on turn 3.  add turns for subsequent LCs.  the “starve the japs out” plan with subs works if the Japanese player doesn’t just buy destroyers and scramble fighters off japan.  you can’t nickle and dime them off the DEIs if he knows where to put his fleet.

you guys get all hung up on the carolines, I’ve never seen a Jap player KEEP them.   Airbase/navy in the Phils, Naval yard in Malaya.  All you need.

[Xayd74]

@Uncle_Joe:

ANZAC is there to pee in Japan’s pool IMO. They can build TRs and a few troops and launch raids on the DEI. If Japan leaves naval forces in the area, buy a sub or so and coordinate with your airpower to wear down those blockers. The TR(s) will not survive, but who cares? You are diverting Japanese TRs, escorts, and more importantly ground troops back to the islands. If Japan ignores them, that is substantial income hit every turn.

ANZAC is not as helpless as they first appear. You just have to ignore the temptation to try and build a navy to contend with Japan and concentrate on raiding forces and local power projection (subs and aircraft).

What I have been doing with ANZAC is building tanks an infantry. 1 Tank and Infantry for each of the islands, and the rest for maintaining control of Australia for at least two waves of japanese amphibious assaults. It occured to me that I wasnt using their planes for anything, and they cannot be used for scrambling, so I was thinking about sending them to support India. I never build any ships for ANZAC. Attempting to ferry troops to DEI seems pointless because the transport will get popped on the first offload, and then I wont be able to afford another.

Basically, I’d been making lots of ferry trips with it to get the 5 IPC bonus of the northern islands. Perhaps that’s an error, but their production is so small, I dont see how it could be.

But if I sent my planes that I’m not using to support India, that seems like a good idea.

[MaherC]

you only get the 5 IPC bonus once for taking a former japanese territory.

[Xayd74]

@MaherC:

I’d really like to see how any of it matters.  I’ve never seen an allied victory, and once india falls, the japs can MATCH any buy the allies make.  on a long enough timeline, the japs win.  On a J1 attack, the US has one LC on the board that can make it to SZ6 on turn 3.  add turns for subsequent LCs.  the “starve the japs out” plan with subs works if the Japanese player doesn’t just buy destroyers and scramble fighters off japan.  you can’t nickle and dime them off the DEIs if he knows where to put his fleet.

you guys get all hung up on the carolines, I’ve never seen a Jap player KEEP them.   Airbase/navy in the Phils, Naval yard in Malaya.  All you need.

You must play exactly like I do Maher. I have made all the same observations. As Japan, I dont even attempt to keep the Carolines. I just grab the valuable infantry off it for my DEI assault. I also bring down more infantry from Japan for my phillipines assault, along with all my bombarding ships, which are all best served down south. There’s no point in leaving any transports in SZ6 because I never use them and the cant be used as fodder for an attack on SZ6, but they’re real valuable in the south seas, and for the eventual assault on Australia.

Even after pulling all those ships from Japan, including the ships in SZ19 and SZ33, and diverting 65% of my income to asian ground troops (only 35% for re-thickening the SZ6 fleet), I can still reliably repel a USA attack on the homeland via scrambling.

This is why I’m trying to come up with ideas for the allies. I noticed that stationing 10 bombers on Midway to assist a SZ6 assault helps a lot, but it still doesn’t win the day. An IMO, you get one shot if you taking that strategy. If you fail (and I always have), it’s over. So, it’s gonna have to be a USA invasion of Asia. And you have to assume that Brits wont have the DEI.

[Vareel]

If Japan abandons Caroline, the US should move in and take it on US2, followed up with ANZAC landing her planes there.  Carolines is a great base to launch an assault into either of the US’s NOs, threatens 2 DEI’s, and a good amount of Asia.

[Hobbes]

@MaherC:

I’d really like to see how any of it matters.  I’ve never seen an allied victory, and once india falls, the japs can MATCH any buy the allies make.  on a long enough timeline, the japs win.  On a J1 attack, the US has one LC on the board that can make it to SZ6 on turn 3.  add turns for subsequent LCs.  the “starve the japs out” plan with subs works if the Japanese player doesn’t just buy destroyers and scramble fighters off japan.  you can’t nickle and dime them off the DEIs if he knows where to put his fleet.

you guys get all hung up on the carolines, I’ve never seen a Jap player KEEP them.   Airbase/navy in the Phils, Naval yard in Malaya.  All you need.

I’ve only played 4 games yet, and J only won in 1 of those. Never seen a J1 attack but from the discussions on the forums and my own calculations it is risky but offers J the best chance to reach economic parity with the allies. Unless J has the 3 aircraft carriers in range of Hawaii it is impossible to destroy the initial US fleet and airforce if it moves there. Plus UK and ANZAC can land their fighters on Borneo (or any other of the DEI, if they conquer it) which will force it to position assets to take the islands.

[Xayd74]

@Vareel:

If Japan abandons Caroline, the US should move in and take it on US2, followed up with ANZAC landing her planes there.  Carolines is a great base to launch an assault into either of the US’s NOs, threatens 2 DEI’s, and a good amount of Asia.

An assault from ANZAC? Doesnt seem to me like they’re ever in a position to assault anything with a mere 15 IPC of production (gained at the end of round 2).

[Xayd74]

@Hobbes:

I’ve only played 4 games yet, and J only won in 1 of those. Never seen a J1 attack but from the discussions on the forums and my own calculations it is risky but offers J the best chance to reach economic parity with the allies. Unless J has the 3 aircraft carriers in range of Hawaii it is impossible to destroy the initial US fleet and airforce if it moves there. Plus UK and ANZAC can land their fighters on Borneo (or any other of the DEI, if they conquer it) which will force it to position assets to take the islands.

There is no need for Japan to attack Hawaii or the WUS. I might consider Midway to avert the bomber threat, but Japan is best served allowing the US to attack them. In fact, neither Honolulu nor WUS are needed for a Japanese victory. The JIN should remain in SZ6 as much as possible to retain the scramble benefit.

[Hobbes]

@Xayd74:

There is no need for Japan to attack Hawaii or the WUS. I might consider Midway to avert the bomber threat, but Japan is best served allowing the US to attack them. In fact, neither Honolulu nor WUS are needed for a Japanese victory. The JIN should remain in SZ6 as much as possible to retain the scramble benefit.

J doesn’t have to actually attack Hawaii, merely deadzone its sea zone to stall the advance of the US fleet. With the US I’d rather to focus on moving the US fleet to NSW since it places it on reach of Java and Celebes. If the US takes Java away from J and then ANZAC UK lands planes there it can be a major pain for Japan to retake since only bombers in Phillipines or carrier planes can reach it.

[Xayd74]

@Hobbes:

J doesn’t have to actually attack Hawaii, merely deadzone its sea zone to stall the advance of the US fleet. With the US I’d rather to focus on moving the US fleet to NSW since it places it on reach of Java and Celebes. If the US takes Java away from J and then ANZAC UK lands planes there it can be a major pain for Japan to retake since only bombers in Phillipines or carrier planes can reach it.

Now that, my friend, works! In fact, I’ll just go straight from Hawaii to the previously unimportant Carolines, which puts me in strike range of all my previous targets and the DEI. True, the US wont have an any production capability overseas, but the southern JIN will be no match for US Navy. US Navy losses will probably be minor, as there are several ports at which to repair ablative hits. This inherently means the US fleet will be mostly intact for a return to Hawaii, picking up the Phillipines along the way. If the UK survived, and it should have, that will turn the tide of the Asian theatre against the japs.

[Uncle_Joe]

The Carolines may be unimportant for the Japanese, but they are a pain in the butt if the US has it. The US simply has too much access to important areas from the Carolines.

In any case, it’s reasonably easy to defend and we rarely take it as the Allies while the game is still competitive. The usual route is San Fran to Pearl to Australia. Once their the US can hit multiple targets in the DEI. Sure Japan can stomp the US fleet there, but then they are vulnerable to counter attack from the ANZACS and US reinforcements (as well as letting the Brits out of the bottle if you didnt spend the time to hunt them down).

[xzorn]

You mentioned something about 7 US transports? I use 3. All of the money needs to go into naval power to take out the Japanese naval power. The ground troops don’t need to be that numerous, since they’ll have so much naval support and will likely only be taking coastal territories.

[Xayd74]

@xzorn:

You mentioned something about 7 US transports? I use 3. All of the money needs to go into naval power to take out the Japanese naval power. The ground troops don’t need to be that numerous, since they’ll have so much naval support and will likely only be taking coastal territories.

It occured to me that I only needed 4 since this isnt an asian invasion, with the idea being to drop an infantry and artillery in each of the DEI, but I wanted two more transports anyway to reconquer the Phillipines and have a little bit of slack if I lose a few.

[Hobbes]

@Uncle_Joe:

Sure Japan can stomp the US fleet there, but then they are vulnerable to counter attack from the ANZACS and US reinforcements (as well as letting the Brits out of the bottle if you didnt spend the time to hunt them down).

Someone posted on another forum that the key to win as Allies is to make moves that look suicidal and that expression stuck to me so much that I followed it on my last game as Allies.
The whole Allied key to the naval battles seems to be not only the attacks but the counterattacks that follow them.
3 US carriers sunk by the Japs off New Guinea? No problem, order the shipyards back to build more and attack the remaining Jap fleet (it actually happened to me) with the US backups and the ANZACs.

[Uncle_Joe]

Personally I think this game is all about timing and time pressure. All of this talk about 7 TRS and 18 DDs and massive showdowns of fleets makes me wonder if we’re all playing the same game. :)

IMO, this game is OVER in about 4-5 turns after the Japanese DoW. Yes, it’s possible for it still be in doubt after that, but that is very rare for us.

[Uncle_Joe]

Someone posted on another forum that the key to win as Allies is to make moves that look suicidal and that expression stuck to me so much that I followed it on my last game as Allies.
The whole Allied key to the naval battles seems to be not only the attacks but the counterattacks that follow them.
3 US carriers sunk by the Japs off New Guinea? No problem, order the shipyards back to build more and attack the remaining Jap fleet (it actually happened to me) with the US backups and the ANZACs.

Yes, that was me and yes, I still think that is way to go. :) The Allies need to spread Japan out and force her to defend multiple areas. And you cant do that with a fleet-massing standoff. The Allies HAVE to ratchet up the pressure on the Japanese from the get-go. If Japan doesnt attack on J1, then the Allies have to start pushing buttons to force Japan to attack as early as possible or suffer the consequences.

The minute Japan attacks, the Allies have to begin launching spoiling attacks and raids (as they did historically). You cant stand off the whole Japanese fleet so it’s not worth trying. You have to spread the Japanese fleet around and take them on in smaller packets or else threaten to take away their econ with raids if they stay massed. The hardest hurdle for us was making those 3-4 ‘bad’ moves each turn that add up to a being a ‘good’ move for the Allies as whole…

[Van_Trump]

In reply to a J1 attack, what should USA build? UK? Anzac?

My thoughts were to build up the firepower of the US fleet as quickly as possible: 1 additional carrier and DD’s.

Raiding would involve transports. How soon can the US afford to buy transports after a J1 attack?

Understand US only has west coast fleet left after J1 attack. Anzac down to 1 DD, 1 Transp, Uk down to DD, CA.

Anzac should build a fighter to replace the one sent to help UK. UK is busy building infantry.

[Uncle_Joe]

What you build in response to a J1 attack largely depends on what the Japanese have where. If they are mostly down in PI and DEI, then the US has a little breathing space. Of course with only 17 IPCs on US1 it’s not really that relevent what you buy IMO. I’d probably go with the CV or 2 DDs, After that, you’ll definitely need TRs. Without them, the Japanese dont have to come out to play. They can just sit back in a mass and create the stand-off that results in an Allied loss.

For ANZAC, I’d prolly go with a TR or a plane if the Japanese are near Australia.

For the Brits? Yeah, prolly more Infantry. If the Japanese are massed at PI or the Carolines, maybe a Sub or a TR depending. Again, the TR is necessary to provoke a Japanese response. If it will survive the turn and be able to land on an island in the DEI, it’s an investment worth making if for no other reason than it will annoy the Japanese. ;)

If you look at the above, you’ll likely have 2-3 TRs quickly in striking position to something of interest to the Japanese. Sure, they can stomp out any of those threats but they’ll have a harder time stomping out ALL of those threats. And that’s where the harassment begins. After that, the US can start to turn up the pressure a bit more with TRs and escorts (DDs and maybe a CA for shelling outpost defenders). A nice safe ‘normal’ US outlay might be 2 DDs, 2 SSs, 1 CA, 1 TR, 1 Inf, 1 Art for 54 IPCs. That gives you some good hitting power and some good diversity as well. If you need to picket, invade, hit convoys, or fight a minor engagement you have the tools with that build. And it keeps the Japanese guessing. If they come at you with full force, use the ANZACS and Brits to raid and wear them down by attrition.

The overriding issue is that Japan is on a tight timetable after a J1 attack. The US is immediately making 55 and the Chinese and Brits are still in the game. The Japanese econ is likely less than half of the combined Allies for the first turn or so. Japan will be feeling the pressure to crank her income and that early in the game she will still need to be building TRs and ground troops, diluting what she can build to augment the fleet. She can’t be everywhere and you know the places where she wants to be (likely the DEI and PI and then supporting operations against the Brits). Force Japan to guard each of the islands and that will quickly run her out of ground forces for the mainland and/or TRs. In the end, the game will likely be decided in the first 4-5 turn after a J1 attack. If Japan succeeds in holding things together and has her econ roughly on par with the surviving Allies, she’ll win. If not, by turn 5 the Japanese will likely be strained to the breaking point.

[Bigtiti]

@Uncle_Joe:

even if india falls, japs are far from winning, US and anzacs ourproduce them

How is that? I can’t imagine India falling without having secured the DEI. And with those accomplished Japan should be making 75+, the US 55, and ANZAC maaaaybe 15. So in addition to having more income Japan will have superior coordination and positioning. Unless Japan is on the ropes at sea when India falls, I feel the game is usually over at that point. I’ve only seen one comeback once India fell and that was a collosal blunder by the Japanese coupled with some bad dice in a major naval engagement.

anzacs ats 15 each round, 2 rounds = 30 IPC = 5 subs
do destroy those 5 subs, BLOCKING EAST-INDIES, it costs japan 5 destroyers: 40

and 75 plus? japan starts with 26, china is 12, FIC+DEI= 13+5, britain is 16, and US loses phillipines (2) and india = 79
but that’s without constant subs blocking east indies and/or japan, and if anzacs do suicide run on lets say Borneo, it’s -9 for japan

jaan can and will be beaten

[Uncle_Joe]

I think it’s 78 for a total Asia conquest. Britain’s last dollar is safe in Canada (ish).

Once that is complete, the Allies have to had made major inroads into naval supremacy or they lose. It’s that simple. If they have, then they likely win. And cutting off the ANZAC bonus is relatively simple early on. At first we just ignored it as the ANZACS were deemed to be a low-priority threat. As we have become better with Allied strategy, it’s more important for the Japanese to take away that bonus or delay it as long as possible (and pee in the Allies’ pool for a bit).

That is why I am happier with a J2 or J3 Japanese attack (depending on Allied actions). By delaying for a few turns you can have more TRs out and have more in position to take everything you want on the first turn of the attack. One of those goals would be to take 1 of the 4 territories that the ANZACS need for their bonus. Sure, it can be taken back, but that is one more turn that the Allies aren’t peeing in YOUR pool and as I said above, I believe this game is usually decided within 4-5 turns of DoW.

Also keep in mind that killing those ANZAC subs do not necessarily result in the loss of a DD. Not at all. If Japan can keep Allied heavy forces out the area, those DDs are likely to survive for more than one use. Also, there are only so many approaches to the DEI from Australia and the ANZACS cant afford to stack the subs (or they lose multiples at once). That limits what can realistically deploy to good positions in one or two turns. This is important because trickling them in rarely does much good since Japan can kill them piecemeal.

As Japan, you start with a plethora of heavy units. Japan needs to concentrate on DDs, some subs, a lot of TRs, and ground forces. Everything else is a luxury that is not necessary in the early critical stages of the game. One Japan has secured Asia, that restriction more or less goes away and you’ll start to see more CVs churning out as well. At that point I believe the Allies have run their course. Either Japan has a secure econ or she doesnt at that point and if she does, the Allies are finished.