Naval Base in Alaska wins the game

[Col Hajj]

Hi all, I was wondering if anyone else as noticed that if the US builds a Naval Base in Alaska, the game is lost for the Japanese.  From this one base, the US can land land units in Korea in one turn.  Since Japan’s only hope of winning is to start producing enough money to match the US, any loss of formally held territories in China will kill Japan.  I don’t think Japan can clean out China and push the UK back far enough to fend off an attack by the US in northern China.

Having to defend the northern approaches to Japan/China will but Japan in to much of a money bind to effectively wage war on anyone.

I’d like to here your thoughts on this.

[Bigtiti]

allies already win the war
start finding some strats for japan ;)

[Col Hajj]

I’m working on that, but the Alaska naval base seems to make all the plans for Japan a mute point.

[RJL518]

nice idea but what if Japan invades Alaska on its first turn of attacking? :evil:

[jim010]

Tried it.  Only works if japan doesn’t chase your navy down.

[dinosaur]

I had already noticed that Alaska could give the Japanese a fright; however, I don’t think the demise of the Rising Sun is quite so certain.  First off I don’t agree that SZ 5 is meant to touch Korea, and I think you would have to go through SZ 6 or the Soviet Union.  In the global game this may be interseting, but in this game you can’t use Russia.

If you have to go through SZ 6, then the Home Fleet will keep you out for quite a spell.  Next, you can build a Navy base, but you still have to float your ships up there.  These same ships are needed to protect Honolulu, a victory city.  If you ditch Hawaii the IJN can walk in from the Carolines.  If you counter attack with the Alaskan Fleet, the IJN Home Fleet will probably counter attack you in Hawaii from Japan.  In the subsequent trade wars (each side just keeps trading fleets), I think the IJN is favored until it gets later in the game when the US economy is wearing out the Japanese.

And there is the possibility that the IJN will invade Alaska before you launch your attack, and they get to use that Navy base for themselves.  I just think that plan would take too long to develop in a normal game.  If you could win from Alaska, you can win from Hawaii.

[RJL518]

@jim010:

Tried it.  Only works if japan doesn’t chase your navy down.

yep…and if japan goes for quick strike on hawaii and/or san francisco…which i think is suicidal by the way…the US will have to rebuild before it can even think of putting a base in alaska

[Col Hajj]

@RJL518:

nice idea but what if Japan invades Alaska on its first turn of attacking? :evil:

Yeah, that’s is a great move by Japan.  Turn 10 sees about 12 tanks and plenty of aircraft putting an end to that… which just help stage those tanks in Alaska for the boat ride over.

@jim010:

Tried it.  Only works if japan doesn’t chase your navy down.

In all of the games where the Japanese have engaged the US navy that we have played, the Japanese win but the surviving ships only last another 1-2 turns before the US bombers finish them off.  Japan does not have the cash to go head to head against the US navy.

Japanese bombers can’t reach your ships in Alaska, so all the US has to do is make it where you do not want to bring ships in to attack that sea zone.  Time is against you in this.  Once they do have ships, transports and tanks there, they can land in Korea in one turn and you can’t really stop them.

[Col Hajj]

Looking at the map, SZ 5 is clearly touching Korea.  If they errata that, then this whole thing goes out the window.

I personally think you could “give away” Hawaii.  It is a victory city, but Japan still has to get Calcutta and Sydney to win the game.  They can’t do that before the US can kill their income (from China).  I agree that if the JIN goes after San Fran or Hawaii it is suicide.  This leaves the US fleet to setup the Alaska OP.

I really don’t think the US needs to do any thing in the Pacific.  Just the threat of the US coming in the back door will bog down Japan’s advance in the other fronts enough to doom them.

[RJL518]

@Col:

@RJL518:

nice idea but what if Japan invades Alaska on its first turn of attacking? :evil:

Yeah, that’s is a great move by Japan.  Turn 10 sees about 12 tanks and plenty of aircraft putting an end to that… which just help stage those tanks in Alaska for the boat ride over.

@jim010:

Tried it.  Only works if japan doesn’t chase your navy down.

In all of the games where the Japanese have engaged the US navy that we have played, the Japanese win but the surviving ships only last another 1-2 turns before the US bombers finish them off.  Japan does not have the cash to go head to head against the US navy.

Japanese bombers can’t reach your ships in Alaska, so all the US has to do is make it where you do not want to bring ships in to attack that sea zone.  Time is against you in this.  Once they do have ships, transports and tanks there, they can land in Korea in one turn and you can’t really stop them.

quite true Colonel….remember though…a smart japan player will not try to conquer the USA…he will go after the other cities and use his strong navy as a defense

[jim010]

I’ll take that challenge.  Hawaii can be taken, and the US Fleet destroyed the turn after.  You will then be rushing to build to kick me out of Hawaii.

[WILD BILL]

_Quote from: Stoney229 on December 20, 2009, 03:09:02 pm
Is Korea adjacent to SZ5?

Answered by Krieghund
Yes._

Looks like its a legal move for now.

[Col Hajj]

I’ve taken Hawaii and destroyed the US fleet and held Hawaii for 4-5 turns.  However, that was after I spent the first 4 turns removing China from the game and hitting the UK hard.

Next time you guys play the US (or play a “test” game with your self), if Japan does not attack you on turn one, move your SF fleet up to Alaska and build a naval base.  Over the next couple of turns drop a fighter on Hawaii and the rest towards building up an invation force in Alaska.

Unless the Japanese player has seen this before, most likely he will think you are going to invade Japan.  Once you are in the war and your invation force and protecting fleet are ready, drive it into SZ5 and dump 5 or so tanks with their 5 supporting infintry (full transports) into Korea.

Once that China money starts falling, Japan will be right behind it.

[Hobbes]

Unless J sinks the entire US transports fleet off SZ5, uses 1 inf in Manchuria to block the path of those 5 inf and 5 arm and on its next turn proceeds to blow up the US Army in Korea or Manchuria with its airforce and land units brought in from J…

Most likely in the Global game R is forbidden to attack J (or Allies to move units there) unless J attacks R

[marechallannes]

Harbour in Alaska wins game?

The japanese home-fleet-carrier goup will always go for the US-Fleet.

If it’s not possible to hit US-fleet at Pearl Habour, it will be hit at the coast of Alaska. A habour without ships does not work.

The alaska-habour strategy could work if the Japs concentrate on Australia.

[Gargantua]

This manuever is easily blocked by retaining 4 jap inf in Manchuria.

Everyone at some point will have a swarm of fighters sitting in Japan.  Even if you did land say 4-8 American ground units, they would be slaughtered in the counter attack.

The Alaska Naval Base, is a good US investment, but Japan can see the attack coming a turn, or turns before it actually occurs.  3 or 4 inf maintained in Manchuria is NOT going to stop the Japanese offensive on the rest of the board.

This is a sneaky move to use on newer, or inexperienced players, but you’re not going to handsdown beat anyone who has a few games under thier belt, with one simple move.

There is NO Silver Bullet in Axis and Allies, STOP looking for it please. :P

[Col Hajj]

I’m sure you have played a lot more AA games then me, but I don’t see how 4 Inf left in Manchuria is going to stop 5 tanks and 5 Inf invading Korea.  Even if you lost all 5 of the US Inf in the 1-2 rounds those 4 Japanese Inf would last, the 5 tanks are going to take a pretty heavy toll on any fighters Japan sends over to deal with them.  I’m sure that is a money exchange the US player would love to get into.

The only sure way I can think to stop this is for Japan to commit a large portion of it’s fleet to sitting up there blocking it… which it could never come and not be a big waste to the US.

Oh, and I’m not looking for a Silver Bullet… I’m looking for a way around one ;)

[Col Hajj]

From reading most of your responses, I’d like to know what happens to your Japanese fleet when you attack the US one at the start of the game (or even mid game)?  I’ve always won with mine, but what I have left is pathtic at best and normally wiped out the next turn by US bombers.

[Uncle_Joe]

I admit that I havent studied this issue extremely closely (or seen it in use) but my sense of it is that as the Japanese player, I’m not all that worried about it. I mean you are going to have to fight the US forces SOMEWHERE. And if the US has 5 TRs + 5 tanks + 5 inf and enough navy to not make this be a one-time suicide force up North then that mean that the US has nothing harassing me in the SoPac/DEI areas. And honestly I’d rather take them on in my own front yard than all the way down away from my production and massed airpower.

Yes, the image of US tanks blitzing through China and liberating Chinese lands to spring up troops is somewhat disturbing, but I still think I would prefer that to having the US continually taking away my bonuses down south and occupying high-value islands. Also, having the US up north is keeping them out of support range from the Aussies and any surviving UK air/navy. That will deprive them of mutual support and threat potential.

And as was said above, it’s not like this is a surprise maneuver. The US has to built the Naval Base (giving 1 turn of warning) and then the TRs with all the associated troops etc have to be on hand to be there as well. If the US is massing that kind of invasion power in San Fran, believe me, I’m going to take counter-measures along the home front. :) The US may cause a bit of a mess up north, but I dont see it as being any ‘insta-win’ or anything close to it at this point.

All that said, I’ll give it a closer look in my next game as the US (and again as Japan) and see if this is something I think would be a worthy diversion of forces from what I consider the primary battle area of the DEI.

[Make_It_Round]

Since the naval base from Hawaii has the same reach as Alaska would, it’s completely useless to build a naval base there. Just protect Hawaii, and it’ll be the same number of turns to get to Tokyo. Plus you don’t have to spend an extra 15 IPCs to invest in a useless base in an area of low strategic value / importance.

That being said, in my second game I played the Allies: bought all naval units for the US, and fronted them to Pearl. Soon Japan attacked and sunk the fleet straight off, with little difficulty. This turnabout left me with 22 IPCs to spend on infantry build to defend the mainland against his 3 transports worth of men and air support from the carriers. I thought that the US itself was untouchable due to distance and superior economy, but San Francisco fell (with NO possibility of recovery; obviously Japan won that game)… so sometimes the smart Japan player SHOULD go for the Americans’ throat. Correspondingly, the US player should never be complacent, and waste their IPCs on pointless facilities.