Putting those Aircraft to use: Great Britain

[axis_roll]

@cts17:

Okay, since my “GO Commonwealth” strat with the Eurasia IC was shot down by our experts,

well I am not an expert, but I will offer my comments and questions

@cts17:

I’m churning out my more common opening in this scenario:

Say what to Great Britain:
2 CV (28)
2 TP (14)
save (1)
Use the fighters to attack the German CA and TP, then land them on the CV in SZ3
Use the DD (SZ9) and the bomber if needed to take out any German SS if they are still alive, esp handy if they are in SZ2

1 CV SZ2
1 CV SZ3
What remains of Atlantic Fleet to SZ2
2 TP SZ3

Can you explain the reasoning for being in SZ3?

Also, my typical opening for Germany would leave that loaded carrier susceptible to 2-3 ftrs and a bmr attack on G2.

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How about another transport and a DD instead in SZ2?  Let USA buy their OWN a/c, they can certainly afford it and it makes things a whole lot easier if the US navy and the UK navy CAN operate on their own (when necessary).

@cts17:

America
Buy
3 TP (21)
1 art (4)
2 arm (10)
1 tech (5)
save (0)

Move inf on Pacific side to WCa (3 total)
Hold your East Coast force in place. Use the DD if necessary. Deal with the Pacific as you wish, I find that moving your bombers to West Coast will throw opponents off, and will leave a lasting (two turns, I would guess) impression to any Polar Express Japan. Of course, a complete KGF with SBR is nice, but that’s your discretion, of course.
Move both fighters on America to Brit CV SZ2. Haul the American TP off WUS to Panama.

Japan is leaving you with a US tpt in WUS?  wow!

@cts17:

Mob All units to East Coast.

Turn 2
GBr Buy
You will have at LEAST 30 IPC, if not more. If Egy wasn’t attacked G1, then it’ll be 37, which is really nice.
anyways, simple math here, You wanna start hitting Europe with 6 or 8 units per turn. start with 6 inf @ 18 IPC, and add 1 for every art, or 2 for every tank, so your range for 6 units will be 18-24 IPC, but 24-32 IPC for 8 units. Either way, you want to maximize unit output, regardless of attack value.

With 30:
5 inf (15)
2 art (8)
1 TP (7)

31:
8 inf (24)
1 TP (31)
Now, every extra IPC, start upgrading those inf to art, then to arm. So, with 32, it’d be 7inf/1art, 33 = 6inf/2art OR 7inf/1arm type deal. If you only have 30 IPC, then you’ll only have 7 units, but getting the extra TP out there is pretty critical, and has Germany eying the Allies off his coast pretty carefully, even turn 2.

Combine your fleets in SZ6, using land units on Norway.

USA
Buy (assuming 48 IPC)
3 TP (21)
5 inf (15) (OR 6 inf/1 art/1 arm, like I said earlier, 8 inf=24IPC, build up to max @ 32 IPC, but with 27 left, only 3 IPC for upgrade)
3 art (12)

Move Fleet off East Coast to East Canada, shift the Pacific TP up to SZ10
Shove your land units into East Canada, and mob the units:
ECa = 6 inf 1 art 1 arm
EUS = 5 inf 3 art

Now you are set to hit Europe coast with (usually) 16 units, with 4 fighters, 2 DD, 2 CV as a fleet to guard you from the Luftwaffe. Slight modifications can be made to change from less mass infantry to more navy as appropriate with needs for defense against any German builds. Show me some flaws, please! I want to improve this, but I like being able to throw 2 fully loaded carriers at Germany turn 2, with some 4 TP off their coast, and an American contingent in North America.

The thing is, you can add the extra UK Carrier (if needed) on UK2 for defense in SZ3, 6 or 7.
You may not need it… or can substitute a DD or CA for added defense.  Depends on where the German planes are.

[axis_roll]

Hmm.  so the main objective for this is game plan is KGF: D-Day style with as many allied units as possible…?

[cts17]

Exactly. Now, on turn 3, I usually surprise my German opponents, since they’ve been eying my fleets, he usually simply stacks France. I’ve seen it where Japanese fighters have landed in France to stop that as well. Coupled with Italian units building up, it’s practically an impregnable fortress. So I merely land my forces in Northwestern Europe. Having 14-16 units on his front door isn’t something positive for the Germans, because they lose 7 IPC from it. (2 terr+5 NO).

The reason for the T1 CV buy, is to get those American fighters on board in time for T2 movement into SZ6/7. The reason for the SZ3 placement is for the 2 fighters I usually send to destroy the German fleet to land on, as they can’t reach SZ2.

Also, German air attacks on a loaded CV isn’t always the best option, seeing as you’re pitting air against air, and that German air attack will be a close one. In any case, those German fighters are going to die.

Which keeps them from the Russian front, and comes at a mere cost of 14 IPC, utilizing your units right off the bat.

[axis_roll]

@cts17:

Exactly. Now, on turn 3, I usually surprise my German opponents, since they’ve been eying my fleets, he usually simply stacks France.

Not sure how a German player would be surprised with your allied round 1 buys and actions for they are pretty foretelling of your plan.

@cts17:

I’ve seen it where Japanese fighters have landed in France to stop that as well. Coupled with Italian units building up, it’s practically an impregnable fortress.
So I merely land my forces in Northwestern Europe. Having 14-16 units on his front door isn’t something positive for the Germans, because they lose 7 IPC from it. (2 terr+5 NO).

I’d have to look at the numbers to see if an Allied round three D-Day can not be wiped out by a German attack round 4.  I would NOT count on the extra WUS tpt in your plan, most Japanese players at least TRY to eliminate that round 1.

Besides that, I am not so sure that your KGF premise is the best Allied game plan.  Many players say that the USA MUST do something in the pacific against Japan.

@cts17:

The reason for the T1 CV buy, is to get those American fighters on board in time for T2 movement into SZ6/7.

Hmm.  Only 14 IPCs?  what about the two ftrs on board?  Even though you didn’t ‘buy’ them per se, those should be included in your cost of SZ3 losses.

[Funcioneta]

You cannot count germans will not buy one AC. More players than you think will do and so I doubt z3 can be hold in that case. It’s possible (but not probable) that some others will add to that one german dd. This can delay your plan. German fleet is a annoying nuisance in this game (I had to change my initial thought regarding this stuff)

However, countering a full KGF is pretty easy in 1941 scenario: annoy Alaska (trading only, a full Polar Express is not easy courtesy of that stinky icecap), take all in Pacific, sail quick to Africa with Japan and more important: SBR USSR and London with Japan until the death. It’s simple: Japan is quicker than USA and has more money, and axis as team will have more money than allies as later at round 3

[Vareel]

Best UK buy turn 1 is 1 CV, 3 Trans, 1 inf, 1 art for SZ2.  This is only viable if the subs are not in SZ 2 of course.  Then UK2 either start the shuck to Karelia, or take france.

And yes, 1 cv isn’t alot of fleet, but if you goto Kar there typically are no G fighers in range, if you goto france your turn 2 build can reinforce, if going after africa, well don’t do this turn 1 purchase :).

[Zhukov44]

It’s really hard to critically comment on any kind of pre-set KGF buying strategy because I feel that how it plays out, including how the Allies buy, should be determined by what Axis is doing.

On first glance the main problem I’m seeing in the OP is there doesn’t seem to be a plan to land in Africa or contain Italy.  This means that Italy will be able to produce 6 (good) units a turn and eventually play a big role in helping defend France and Germany.  But theoretically, if Russia is also being aggressive, it might be possible to take down Germany before Italy can get big enough to swing the game.  However, it seems like a tough proposition.

In any case, this strategy has the same problem all Allied strategies have…over the long run Axis will earn more income…  Typically, the way for Allies’ to deal is to try to neuter and conquer Germany/Italy before they are inevitably stomped.  But if not just Japan but also Italy is getting all its NOs, the economic inequality problem might assert itself a little sooner.

[cts17]

Hmmm… I see your point. Do you think that moving the CUS inf to EUS, and turn 2 moving 2 inf 1 art 1 arm from EUS down to Alg, moving the other 2 up to ECa as planned might start the pressure on Italy early? The CV SZ2 could shift to SZ12 as a guard.

[Corbeau Blanc]

The flaws in your strat is not the idea of landing in Europe.

I see them as follow:

• Uk bought warships when USA can do that for them
• UK is aiming to do a 8 unit drop per turn, which is simply not enough even if USA can also land 6 units.

If UK decides to land in Europe, it must only do that and nothing else.

I’ll give you one of my UK strat and you let me know what you think after:

Corbeau’s stovepipe special

Assuming boots in place between UK and Canada: 2 tanks, 3 infantry, 1 art
Assuming worst case: 43 ipc round 1, 30 ipc round 2 and only 1 transport survived with either DD or BB

• UK Round 1: 8inf saves 19 ipc
• UK Round 2: deploy 7 transports in seazone 8 backed by last UK warship ( Only Italy can threaten theses before US move ) The 2 uk fighters land on american CV. Add surviving TP that will bring in Canadian troops ( 8 TR total)

USA has 1 DD/TP  2 inf/1art bringing middle usa infantry ( 4 fighters )

• USA round 1: 1CV, 2 TP, 1 inf / 1art / 1 tank , 4 fighters to Canada
• USA round 2: Moves CV+DD to cover the UK boats in sz8. All 4 fighters to UK.

On the round 3 drop, as UK lands in Europe, it can also deploy warships if really needed in sz 7 but it’s rare Italy is ready for this. From experience, 1DD, 1BB, 1CV, 2 fighters is enough at round 2 to defend against Germany airforce since you deploy thoses transports after Germany R2, so you should have a clear idea of what awaits you. Most of the time, having no landing force to prevent R2, many players commit thoses german fighters toward Russia to only see the transports pop afterwards on UK2. It’s a good way to lure the Luftwafte somewhere else  :roll:

I was not too keen on sharing this strat, it’s really one I put lot of tought into, but there you have it:

14 UK ground troops on round 3 followed by 6 USA troops + AAgun + their 4 fighters to hold the fort. Land in the Bombers if you must. Ya, it’s over 25 allied units on Germany’s doorstep R3. :-o

What I learned over many games and why I say allies are stronger than axis:
Most people fail with allies because they trade every turn with UK when it’s Russia’s job to do that. Not only that, they play Russia defensively, worsening the problem. The idea for USA and UK is to land in force and hold their beachhead. You can’t do that with a 8 units drop and you won’t accomplish anything if you get pushed back into the sea.

[Zhukov44]

Good stuff, kudos to you for sharing that one Corbeau.  UK transport overbuys early on seem difficult for Axis to counter effectively.  At a minimum, it can force Western Axis to play defense and cede initiative in the East.  Either Germany commits enough to cover France or they commit enough to deadzone France…either way it’s more troops than they can afford.

[axis_roll]

@Corbeau:

The flaws in your strat is not the idea of landing in Europe.

I see them as follow:

• Uk bought warships when USA can do that for them
• UK is aiming to do a 8 unit drop per turn, which is simply not enough even if USA can also land 6 units.

If UK decides to land in Europe, it must only do that and nothing else.

I’ll give you one of my UK strat and you let me know what you think after:

Corbeau’s stovepipe special

Assuming boots in place between UK and Canada: 2 tanks, 3 infantry, 1 art
Assuming worst case: 43 ipc round 1, 30 ipc round 2 and only 1 transport survived with either DD or BB

• UK Round 1: 8inf saves 19 ipc

Well to me as the axis, this is a huge red flag, especially if I have seen this before.

In other words, this is a nice surprise strategy, but one that can be countered when recognized.
An easy counter would be to land ftrs in Fra, perhaps even buying a second German bomnber G2.
That might make the allied navy of “1DD, 1BB, 1CV, 2 fighters” insufficient protection for the transport fleet.

I am sure the allies can then swap their game plan to adjust to the proper axis response,
which is not a bad thing (allies forcing the axis to respond to their moves).

[Zhukov44]

The nice thing is…if Germany sees it coming and acts preemptively (like say landing its figs in France) there is an opportunity cost involved…  Given normal G1 attacks, those figs won’t be able to attack anything useful G2 and still land in France.  Plus, as you note, the Allies can still adapt their tactics and buy another AC UK2.

[axis_roll]

@Zhukov44:

The nice thing is…if Germany sees it coming and acts preemptively (like say landing its figs in France) there is an opportunity cost involved…  Given normal G1 attacks, those figs won’t be able to attack anything useful G2 and still land in France.  Plus, as you note, the Allies can still adapt their tactics and buy another AC UK2.

So each side giving up a round of ‘tempo’ help who more?

that answer depends allot on what’s happening on the Russian front as well as Africa.