Carriers

[ksmckay]

Not sure how two hit carriers can be as bad a thing as everyone is making them out to be.

The changes made to carriers from AA50 are now that they cost two IPC more, and their attack value went from 1 to 0.  In exchange they get a second hit except that the hit comes with the price of not being able to carry ftrs and has to be repaired.  They also can now carry Tac bombers so they can send out a little more offensive punch (though not much).

The second hit is certainly not as nice as the free hit to BB in AA50 that didnt make any sense in which a BB got absorb hit after hit without penalty and then magically repair itself after each turn (meaning a US BB could take a hit from germany, a hit from Japan, and a hit from italy, and then engage in combat and take another hit and still be 100% functional and ready to do it again)  That certainly didnt make sense and I think we should all be glad to see that their is a price to pay for assigning a hit to a capital ship.

Probably some ppl would like to have AA50 rules for carriers but how is that any better.  Does anyone really count on AC’s for their awesome attack value of 1?  What about kamikazes.  The ftrs would be just as vulnerable in either case two hits or not.  But now instead of losing the AC completely you can send it back to base and get it repaired for free compared to buying a new one for 14 IPCs.  I think two IPCs is a worthwhile price for a little extra durability.

All these scenarios saying that people can abuse the AC by crippling it with a hit and now the ftrs are lost only makes sense when comparing it to the imaginary AC that gets free hits.  The old AC would be even worse off after absorbing a hit (sunk).

[Funcioneta]

@kcdzim:

Re: having a carrier in the atlantic or med.  It won’t be easily abused, as the carrier has to wait a full round to be repaired.  But that will mean that one ally will need to make the first attack on it to leave it crippled, and then the next ally will have to attack it to finish it off, preventing them from attacking somewhere else.  It’s helpful.  Just not super helpful.

You will need at least one more unit to attack the stack, and that can be a world of difference in attacking the whole stack or not. Now the carrier+planes combo gives you 4 hits instead of 3

However I must agree with the cost, 14 would be better … or at least let them attack at 1s or defend at 3s. We are getting too much units with 0 attack values: trannies, aa guns and now ACs … or ignore those odd bases and autorepair as always …

[kcdzim]

@Funcioneta:

You will need at least one more unit to attack the stack, and that can be a world of difference in attacking the whole stack or not. Now the carrier+planes combo gives you 4 hits instead of 3

However I must agree with the cost, 14 would be better … or at least let them attack at 1s or defend at 3s. We are getting too much units with 0 attack values: trannies, aa guns and now ACs … or ignore those odd bases and autorepair as always …

Except you can retreat if they choose the hit on the carrier, leaving them in a weaker position when your ally attacks.  And if they choose planes as casualties, each subsequent round is easier to win.

I know that if I attacked and they chose to hit the carrier, I’d probably immediately retreat if my partner could finish them off.  Damage done.

[Funcioneta]

@ksmckay:

What about kamikazes.

Good old kamikazes … they are nice, a historical bonus to Japan … and we also get some ahistorical irreal ACME wall that also benefits Japan aswell. Just let’s hope they add at least the soviet-jap non-agression pact in the global game so we have at least one special rule that punishes Japan instead of aiding them

[Funcioneta]

@kcdzim:

Except you can retreat if they choose the hit on the carrier, leaving them in a weaker position when your ally attacks.  And if they choose planes as casualties, each subsequent round is easier to win.

I know that if I attacked and they chose to hit the carrier, I’d probably immediately retreat if my partner could finish them off.  Damage done.

That’s totally true, but there are some cases where only one ally has enough power or range to attack, specially round 1 or 2 when USA and USSR are not at war yet  :wink:

Man, I had a extrange sight: a UK+France one-two punch … ugly!  :lol:

[WILD BILL]

Well at least the French will be able to leave France lol.

[WILD BILL]

As far as carriers go I agree with ksm. The way it played out in AA50 is once your carrier was hit it sunk, your planes had to find an alternate place to land. Its the same now except you have a chance to limp the carrier back and keep it. 
The 2 hit units are going to be bitter/sweat. This along with other changes/additions will make the naval battles much better and more realistic. Its adding a degree of logistics AA has been missing.

[Funcioneta]

@WILD:

Well at least the French will be able to leave France lol.

That if they survive G1, but anyway you beaten me!  :lol:

[Veqryn]

@WILD:

As far as carriers go I agree with ksm. The way it played out in AA50 is once your carrier was hit it sunk, your planes had to find an alternate place to land. Its the same now except you have a chance to limp the carrier back and keep it. 
The 2 hit units are going to be bitter/sweat. This along with other changes/additions will make the naval battles much better and more realistic. Its adding a degree of logistics AA has been missing.

If they had of kept the price the same, I would agree with you…

but because they have upped the price, Carriers are much much less of a bargain, so much so that I think buying other naval units just became better.
The coolest thing to me about the prices from AA50, was that no matter how you cut it, whether offense or defense, a Carrier with 2 planes was more cost effective than purchasing the equivalent amount of other naval units.
Now that carriers jumped up in price, without adding ANYTHING tangible to offense or much to defense, a Carrier plus 2 planes is no longer the most cost effect route to go.

[bennyboyg]

@Veqryn:

@WILD:

As far as carriers go I agree with ksm. The way it played out in AA50 is once your carrier was hit it sunk, your planes had to find an alternate place to land. Its the same now except you have a chance to limp the carrier back and keep it. 
The 2 hit units are going to be bitter/sweat. This along with other changes/additions will make the naval battles much better and more realistic. Its adding a degree of logistics AA has been missing.

If they had of kept the price the same, I would agree with you…

but because they have upped the price, Carriers are much much less of a bargain, so much so that I think buying other naval units just became better.
The coolest thing to me about the prices from AA50, was that no matter how you cut it, whether offense or defense, a Carrier with 2 planes was more cost effective than purchasing the equivalent amount of other naval units.
Now that carriers jumped up in price, without adding ANYTHING tangible to offense or much to defense, a Carrier plus 2 planes is no longer the most cost effect route to go.

With a carrier and two fighters on defense you have 10 pips to hit at, and it takes 4 hits to kill and costs 36 IPCs. The only thing more cost effective would be buying 6 subs at the same cost hitting on 12 pips and taking 6 hits to kill. But the defense of the subs is half of its attack, and keep in mind in the pacific, at least, having a mobile platform to transport air units is invaluable as they are equally as usable on land and at sea. If you want straight out power, then sure, carriers are expensive, but what you’re paying for is mobility and I can’t see japan or america winning without the mobility they afford.

[oztea]

Look, im going to make this perfectly clear……

A torpedo hits a carrier…carrier is crippled and two fighter wings went up in the air then crash into the ocean

I DO NOT WANT THIS TO HAPPEN

A torpedo hit kills 20 IPCs of fighters?

And dont say “same thing happens in AA50…” because it doesent ok, carriers dont have two hits, yea the planes would die in AA50 but THIS time the carrier has TWO hits, isnt that some kind of protection from this insanity? cant fighters just stay on as cargo if it is an enemy unit they cant hit? and hits via sneak attack anyway. maybe one fighter is in the air on CAP, but i find it silly that this can happen

And of course im not going to leave my carrier fleet destroyerless, but if US attacks a Japanese fleet and kills the DD, then the UK attacks with one sub…look out planes because the UK has flying torpedos now

[ksmckay]

Torpedo hit doesnt kill 20 IPC worth of ftrs, the decision to put a loaded carrier at risk from a submarine strike is what killed the 20 IPCs of ftrs.  Dont base your valuable carriers where there arent enough units to defend them and nowhere safe for you AC to land.

And dont say “THIS time the carrier has two hits…”, it does have two hits but not these imaginary free hits that you wish it had.

[Variable]

@Veqryn:

@WILD:

As far as carriers go I agree with ksm. The way it played out in AA50 is once your carrier was hit it sunk, your planes had to find an alternate place to land. Its the same now except you have a chance to limp the carrier back and keep it. 
The 2 hit units are going to be bitter/sweat. This along with other changes/additions will make the naval battles much better and more realistic. Its adding a degree of logistics AA has been missing.

If they had of kept the price the same, I would agree with you…

but because they have upped the price, Carriers are much much less of a bargain, so much so that I think buying other naval units just became better.
The coolest thing to me about the prices from AA50, was that no matter how you cut it, whether offense or defense, a Carrier with 2 planes was more cost effective than purchasing the equivalent amount of other naval units.
Now that carriers jumped up in price, without adding ANYTHING tangible to offense or much to defense, a Carrier plus 2 planes is no longer the most cost effect route to go.

I can see the point here on both sides. However, by allowing us to keep the carrier after it’s been hit and repairing it for free, it actually frees up enough IPCs to buy bigger fleets. In AA50, if you lost the carrier and fighters you would want to replace them. Now, you still need to replace the fighters but purchase additional escort ships that you should have had in the first place. Bigger navies, bigger battles, bigger fun!

[oztea]

I dont wish it had imaginary hits, that cant be further from the truth

My AA50 house rules……
Changes to Units:
3. Carriers – Carriers now cost 17 IPCs, and require two hits to sink, when damaged they can only launch or land one plane. They must repair in the same way as battleships (see above).

I understand not putting my carriers in risky positions, but as japan, with 3 allied turns between, there is a chance that a fleet may be reduced to only a carrier and two planes by the time it gets to the ANZAC turn….and a lone sub comes by

The planes launch to defend against a target they can not hit, and can not land on a now damaged carrier.
A torpedo killed 20 IPCs of fighters by damaging a carrier, does it hit the cargo hold? and the deck? and some of the planes on deck? after that, there isnt even much ship left to repair!

[kcdzim]

@oztea:

The planes launch to defend against a target they can not hit, and can not land on a now damaged carrier.
A torpedo killed 20 IPCs of fighters by damaging a carrier, does it hit the cargo hold? and the deck? and some of the planes on deck? after that, there isnt even much ship left to repair!

So you’re far from friendly land and a sub comes along against your lone carrier:
AA50 rules: sub hits the carrier and sinks it in one hit.  Planes can’t land, planes die.  Sub “killed” 34 IPCs.

Pacific Rules:  sub hits carrier, carrier develops a list (which is really the damage we’re discussing, causing the planes to be unable to land on a tilted deck), planes can’t land, planes die, but carrier manages to depth charge a 2 hit on the sub.  Sub “killed” 20 IPCs and if you get lucky, you can limp the carrier back home.

Much better deal. The “protection from this kind of insanity” is that your carrier MIGHT make it back, saving you 16 IPCs.  It could be worse.  It would make sense to me that planes would NOT in fact launch if a sub sneak attacked and hit (but they could launch if the first torp missed).  Because you’d think the whole point of the sub is to catch them unawares.  But that would make subs very broken.

[oztea]

Planes might be on CAP
Planes might be on deck
Planes might be in the hold when the sub attacks

That is why I prefer reducing the ammount of planes that can land to 1

so you do lose one plane if you have two, but arent punished unrealisticly if a sub sneak attacks you and somehow pops two planes when it hits the carrier

[kcdzim]

@oztea:

Planes might be on CAP
Planes might be on deck
Planes might be in the hold when the sub attacks

That is why I prefer reducing the ammount of planes that can land to 1

so you do lose one plane if you have two, but arent punished unrealisticly if a sub sneak attacks you and somehow pops two planes when it hits the carrier

Realistically, the carrier is half on its side, unable to land any planes.

It could be argued that the point of a plane only having one move space as a defender is that they ARE in fact on CAP, not when attacked specifically but throughout the round until your turn again and as such are not fresh.

If you want to make it more complicated to realistically describe planes on CAP and on deck, maybe declare before combat whether you’ve got some sleepers.  And if that carrier doesn’t fully tip you keep your decked plane.  But if the sub hits the ammo mag…  well…  bummer.  Guess you should have had them on CAP with their one move.

[oztea]

I garuntee damaged carriers retured to port during WWII with some planes on board

and I figured it out two seconds ago when I was upstairs
the rule is for convience, and a cop out by larry.

Since the A&A standard of “damage” is “tipped on its side”
And since carrier peices CANT hold plane pieces when tipped on their side
when damaged….carriers cant hold planes!

so rules and reality have to bend to the fact that we dont have damage chips in this edition…

[bennyboyg]

@oztea:

I garuntee damaged carriers retured to port during WWII with some planes on board

and I figured it out two seconds ago when I was upstairs
the rule is for convience, and a cop out by larry.

Cmon dude give him some credit. He made the decision based on how best he thought the game would work. If you don’t like it, fine, make a house rule, but you don’t have be a jerk.

[kcdzim]

@oztea:

I garuntee damaged carriers retured to port during WWII with some planes on board

Of course they did, but this is a simplified game.  If you want an element of reality to it make a house rule where some or all of your planes are on CAP, maybe even send them to adjacent sea zones declared during each turn, and then roll 1d6 per plane to land on a damaged carrier (a 6 ditches in ocean).

And while you’re at it, roll 1d6 after a sub strike to determine torp strike - 6 for critical hit - ammo magazine, all lost; 5 for rudder strike, steam in a circle, can’t move for a full turn; 4 for power loss, can only move one space at a time; 3 -1 for torpedo belt, land planes as noted above.

Or stop worrying about it cause your carrier will OCCASSIONALLY live slightly longer than before because it’s a minimal change.