Allied Strategy Discussion

[Flintlock]

@Veqryn:

If Germany either abandons africa, or they do not roll well during their attack on Egypt (meaning they don’t take it, or they take it with only 1 unit left), and Germany did not buy any more Med navy units….
Then the UK could try to sink the BB with just a fighter and bomber, and if they succeed the UK should purchase an Egypt IC at the first available opportunity.

The bomber from england plus the fighter from india (plus your fighter from egypt if alive, but most likely not) would have a 60% chance of killing the BB AND transport with just the bomber left, and a 20% chance of killing just the BB and losing both planes thereby leaving the transport alive, and lastly, a 20% chance of doing nothing at all since the BB repairs.  Could be worth it.

I did this w/the UK, and the next game it was done to me.  It was extremely effective, in both cases, slowing down Germany.  Unfortunately for the allies, in both cases, atrocious roles later in the game did them in.

Still, if you can take out the Med fleet in conjunction with an Egypt IC that would be beastly.

[Veqryn]

just thought i’d add this:

i played a game today against a guy who really kicked my ass
it was mostly luck, as he won a couple 95% plus battles between germany and russia, but he DID have an interesting purchase/play:

Buy a Submarine as Russia and place it in the Med
(and leave your 2 fighters in the caucasus)

what can you do with that you ask?
well, unless Germany keeps her fleet in SZ14 AND buys a destroyer, THEN

you can destroy the german MED fleet.

yes, this does mean russia is out 2 infantry…. but you have just made short work of the med, so the UK and USA can support you a lot sooner in europe rather than wasting their time kicking germany out of africa
it also means that if he decides to leave his fleet in sz14, then you have control over the suez, which means you can sail the UK fleet right through into the med,
while if he does take egypt, you get to take it back during uk turn 1, and germany will never threaten africa again.

in my game i kind of thought, well he just wasted 6 ipcs, I’m going to take my african guys and drop them off in Ukraine instead.
this might have worked, except as i said before, the UK just sailed into the med.  This left japan with not enough targets and too many fighters, essentially wasting their turn 1.  Russia did have some trouble dealing with the extra 2 units per turn, that would have otherwise been sent to africa each turn, but if she can hold out for 3 turns then the UK should have been able to drop off some goodies to keep germany busy and counteract that.

[Zhukov44]

@Veqryn:

just thought i’d add this:

i played a game today against a guy who really kicked my a**
it was mostly luck, as he won a couple 95% plus battles between germany and russia, but he DID have an interesting purchase/play:

Buy a Submarine as Russia and place it in the Med
(and leave your 2 fighters in the caucasus)

it also means that if he decides to leave his fleet in sz14, then you have control over the suez, which means you can sail the UK fleet right through into the med,
while if he does take egypt, you get to take it back during uk turn 1, and germany will never threaten africa again.

in my game i kind of thought, well he just wasted 6 ipcs, I’m going to take my african guys and drop them off in Ukraine instead….

Yes, I’ve also came across that, perhaps against the same oppo (M-S).  It’s a neat move.  However, I’m not convinced it’s a stronger move than waiting until UK2 for a more secure attack by air.  It’s definitely a good move for Allies if they can clip the fleet without losing a Russian fighter, but more than 50% it should cost em a fighter (unless Russia buys a 3rd fig R1).  So….that means the Ruskies are potentially down 16 ipcs worth of units plus they didn’t use their figs for trading on R2.

Bottom line is that given a lesser (or no) bid and the weak Med fleet, Germany should have a hard time of it in Africa.  This gives Allies a long-term economic advantage if they can hold on to Russia.  Of course, Japan can contest Africa, but diverting resources there always involves a trade-off.

[Veqryn]

I think you overstated it when you said 50% chance of losing a fighter… so i did the numbers:

1st round
Attack rolls for 2 fighters and 1 submarine
42% or 5/12 for 2 or three hits
42% or 5/12 for 1 hit
17% or 2/12 for zero hits

Defense rolls for BB:
67% or 8/12 for 1 hit (lose submarine)
33% or 4/12 for zero hits

So you have a 42% chance of sinking BB first round, and a 58% chance of going to the second round.  Of those going to the second round, 29% have no hits on the BB while 71% have 1 hit on the BB; and 67% you have lost a submarine

2nd round with submarine without hits on BB: 2/21 = 10% chance
Same as first round

2nd round with submarine with hit on BB: 5/21 = 24% chance
83% or 10/12 for 1 or more hits attacking
67% or 4/6 for 1 hit defending

2nd round without submarine without hits on BB: 4/21 = 19% chance
25% chance for 2 hits attacking
50% chance for 1 hit attacking
25% chance for no hits attacking
67% chance for 1 hit defending

2nd round without submarine with hit on BB: 10/21 = 48% chance
75% chance for 1 or more hits attacking
25% chance for no hits attacking
67% chance for 1 hit defending

Play these numbers out a bit and you have 32% that you will lose 1 or more fighters.
Success rate for this btl is 90%, with average of 1.7-1.8 units left.

While this is a great move, its also a huge a gamble, and I am not one to gamble with Russia.  If russia screws this one up (and that is easy since there is a low number of units involved), you are really dead.  If the UK screws up, its not the end of the world…

[Zhukov44]

Yes…my bad…32% is right.  Didn’t take account of the sub’s 1st strike ability and that the bb might miss.

Worth it?  Maybe.  If Allies are going to gamble then they might even consider attacking right away on UK1 with a fig plus a bomber.  R1 sub buy + R2 attack is less risky, though it would be utterly devastating  if you catch the 10% and fail.

What makes hitting the German fleet before G2 extra tempting is that the presence of German subs makes it very tough to reinforce Africa early on.

[Col.Stauffenberg]

A friend tried this on me but he used two subs. I thought he was done for and I might have been able to beat him if I bought just land forces but I went with an AC in the Baltic in a bid for defense and to try and get back into Africa. I even botched the RD1 attack on the atlantic UK navy and he kept his BB. Still I did get back into Africa by about round 4. OUr game wound up being epic, over 15 rounds but eventually Japan was taken out because he always throws everthing he can at Japan (and somehow it usually works for him). I even had India as Japan, and Caucus as Germany but not on the same round. It was a crazy game.

[Veqryn]

Well, the Med fleet is weaker because the transport can’t defend.  But the allies are also weaker because unlike revised they can not land round 1 in algeria (under normal conditions) with anything more than a suicide fleet.

So we have a UK1 option of attacking with a fighter and bomber, 80% chance kill BB or better, 40% chance no attackers left.
A Russia 2 option, of attacking with a sub and two fighters, 90% chance kill BB or better, 32% chance 1 fighter dies, (4% all die, 6% lose)
And we have a UK2 “safe” option, which can take many many forms, but does mean that Germany will probably have 1 tank, 1 art, 2 inf in an Egypt with no allied units until they hit either persia or kenya.  I hate having german units in africa and having chasing them around for 4 turns.  Buying bombers as the UK means not buying fleet and transport and units…
And lastly, we have a USA/UK3 option, which usually involves landing a big force round 2 in africa and then killing the german fleet round 3 and landing more in africa (second landing in africa can get turned into a landing in italy round 4).

For the UK2 option, you could buy a bomber or more, which would give you at least 2 bombers plus a fighter to hit the german med fleet with.
The only other issue here would be that in order for this to line up, you need to have either egypt or transjordan as belonging to you at the beginning of UK2, which means that you have to take back egypt on UK1 from the germans.  This is normally done anyway, so this isn’t an issue.

What do you guys who like to do the UK2 option like to buy on UK1?
I am guessing: 1 bomber, 2 Destroyers, save 2 ipcs.  Or 1 bomber, 1 Carrier, save 4 ipcs.
It kind of sucks because the germans will have 2 submarines, 1 bomber, and at least 2 fighters within range of your new fleet.  by buying a bomber as the UK, your fleet is weak as heck and can be taken out, even if you have the USA cruiser join it.  I guess you could buy 1 bomber, save 18 ipcs, and send your lone transport on a suicide mission to algeria/norway, or have him sit off washington dc.

[Zhukov44]

Good analysis.  One more factor in the UK2 attack is you could fly some figs to W. Russia and/or Moscow and/or F. West Africa…this is common in Revised.  So you don’t necessarily have to buy a bomber UK1 tho bombers are quite useful anyway.  Along with that, maybe send a Russian army into Persia R1 so you can hold Jordan G2 and then reinforce with the India garrison UK2.  But this assumes a successful Egypt counter on UK1 which doesn’t always happen.

Re. the R2 option, if 2 figs 1 sub is too risky one might buy a fig or bomber R1 to bolster the attack…but then the trade-off is whether Russia will be too weak on the ground to withstand a tank rush.

[Col.Stauffenberg]

I’m in the middle of a game where I was really putting the hurt to the axis for the first four rounds but suddenly he broke out and is making some huge money this turn with both powers. I still have an Indian IC, and a huge US Navy that’s just started island hopping, but I’ve lost africa for the time being and he built a med navy and a baltic navy as germany. Russia is surrounded but with minimal forces.

This was my first attempt at a KJF. The question I’m posing is, can the allies overcome a big economic advantage from the axis? Is it better to be aggresive or patient when this happens?

[Romulus]

Independently from being Allies or Axis the economic avantage may be leveraged to acheive victory, so, imho, operations in A&A must be planned in term of strategy but also economic factor should be considered.

The sudden broke out you mention maybe is the result of a constant Axis build up, possibile thanks to economic gaining.

In the specific situation, as alredy pointed out in preceding intervention the Allied objectives could be:

• USA aim to liberation of Africa;
• UK lands troops in Karelia to bolster URSS defense;

Both objective require dealing with Germans fleet that may interfere in the operations. This is the problem, because dealing with such fleets requires ships and aircrafts that are not directly useful on the ground in Africa and in Russia. so while USA and UK fight to gain control ofthe seas Germany and Japan may squeeze Russia and take Moscow.

The USA fleet island hopping, in this context, could be a wasting of resources.

[Col.Stauffenberg]

Thanks for the advice Romolus but here’s where I’m torn. If I abandon Island Hopping than Japan will be uncontested. At least where I am, I’m forcing him to think defensively as Japan. I’m two spaces from Africa, Two spaces from India, and one space from all his islands. Maybe I should skip the east indies factory and focus on a mass landing in africa? Land in algeria and Italian east africa or Egypt. Actually I could probably do both.

[77stranger77]

That’s sort of a false choice, getting East Indies shouldn’t be that easy. Getting a complex there is huge but assuming no J1 dice jobs, Japan should be able to prevent America from advancing for a long time.

Without America in the Atlantic, the British will have to buy a lot more fleet protection and a lot less troops. I don’t have the experience to draw any conclusions but I’m wondering if this version ruined the US Pacific strategy. Maybe I’m missing something, but the UK on their own has a hard time and the US won’t be making any immediate gains.

[Col.Stauffenberg]

I already have East Indies. I took it last round. (We’re on round 6). I’ve spent almost all my income on the pacific as the US. Germany has a lot of boats but they only have three tanks on the board right now.

[Romulus]

Mmm really you can not abandon Island hopping, you have spent resources but you are also obtaining results. And if you are at turn 6 and Russia is still alive you may still turn the table.

I suppose that a good option is to focus on East Indies then, try to build a factory there and engage the Japanese forces, avoiding Japanese focusing on Russia.

The problem is that UK have to:

• control the Atlantic;
• liberate Africa;
• put pressure on Europe.

All this objectives may be out of reach for the british alone, so I would suggest focusing on the first two and try to stay alive with Russia, which may be the real problem in this scenario.

But, sincerely, I think that Pacific strategy with USA, though may bring to good results, is a long time strategy, maybe too long.

The problem of the Pacific Strategy is that USA is not helping directly Russia, because reduce Japanese rush to Moscow but Red Army is forced to face a stronger Germany, which may a have a more easy life against UK alone.
I prefer to go all in Atlantic with USA in the first turn, with the objective of winning the Battle of Atlantic, liberate Africa and starting to create problem in Europe.

I have no problem with the KGF and JTDM. It is only the high level objective of the game.
The important, and funny, things to do wth A&A are the logistic, the planning and the conduction of the combats.
Also Chess have only a way to win, checkmate the oppenent King, but there are numerous way for obtaining such objective!

[77stranger77]

My mistake, if you have East Indies, I would definitely get a factory there and if you can defend it, on Borneo and/or Philippines. If you can, the Allies probably win. East Indies isn’t a bad place to be to contest Africa. Germany shouldn’t be a threat to Russia in Round 6 after building Baltic and Med navies and probably isn’t with only 3 tanks on the board. Where has Germany massed their forces, Ukraine, Karelia, EE?

[Col.Stauffenberg]

Germany doesn’t have a force to amass. There’s two or three germany inf surrounding Cauc and Mosc and nothing immediately behind it. He’s spent so much on navy. He’s got a carrier, a cruiser, 2 destroyers and two transports in the Med, plus a baltic navy. He is up 54 ipc’s. I imagine he’s going to buy 8 men and 6 tanks, but who knows. It’s a lot of money but he’s just buying stuff he should have by now already.

I normally do a KGF, but with the new rules, KJF is more tempting. It seems to be working. I’ll let you guys know the outcome.

[77stranger77]

Okay, it sounds like the Allies win. Don’t worry if the UK isn’t landing much in terms of troops into Europe. Russia can push back against Germany and Japan is going down the tubes if America has factories on her islands. Sounds like a fun game.

[WTFchris]

I’m going to have to do some more testing, but it seems hard for the Allies to get troops to Europe fast enough to counter Japan’s surge in Asia.  It will take the US a few turns to have their transports protected.  It will also take UK a couple turns to have it’s fleet secure enough to dump into Norway or Karelia.  Can Russia survive without support for a few turns?

I don’t do a ground surge with Germany right away (instead grab a bomber a turn to keep Allied boats sunk).  You still make 4-5 tanks a turn which is enough to hold your eastern front.  If you simply send 8+ tanks at Russia at turn they will get killed by counter attack because you’re two turns away from hitting.  I’d rather keep Russia’s front line within tank range from Germany IC until Japan has Yakut, China and India secure.  Then both sides advance while the German air keeps Allies away (you can trade Western Europe back and forth and it doesn’t matter anyway).  By that time you have Africa secured and enough to send 12+ tanks into Russia a turn.

Maybe the Med Sea Russian sub idea really swings the African tide and allows US to spend more on convoy defense and less on troops to land initially.

[Advosan]

IMO, I believe each ally has very specific objectives.

Russia must pin down Germany in the east.
England must relieve Russia ASAP.
USA must pin down Japan in the pacific.

Pin down Germany:
Goal one, Russia must always have control of the territories adjacent to its factories (archangel, WRus, Ukr). the best deploy package is 2 inf 2 rtl 2 arm (24 IPC). Arm can blitz from Russia, while inf and rtl from caucasus can attack both WRu or Ukr.
Goal two, fortify Karelia. Fending Germany off Karelia prevents a)easy landing from Germany, so German inf + rtl move slower towards the front. As allies you cannot allow German assault troops reaching WRu in just 2 rounds. And b) fortifying Karelia protects Archangel too.
Goal three, trading territories. Wherever, whenever.

Relieve Russia:
Goal one, secure some IPC. The british empire consist of three IPC “blocks”:

1. North atlantic=12 IPC, key territory England, first priority
2. Africa=10 IPC , key teritory Sudan(prime), Rhodesia, second priority
3. India/Pacific=8 IPC , key territory India(prime) , Australia, third priority
   No british player can protect all three blocks. Prioritise, save what can be saved, abandon the rest.
   Essential: Consider grabbing Borneo, cripples the Jap 4 good.
   Goal two, build an invasion fleet. No need for submarines, since it will be a defence fleet. 4 DD, 1 AC(2 fgt) , 1 BB. Should take 3 rounds, Russia MUST buy you 3 rounds.
   Goal three, build an invasion force and invade (norway, Karelia, france, EastEU, you name it, everywhere there is an opening). 4 transports and then at each round 4 inf 4 arm (if not enough IPC change arm with rtl respectively, or if even less change rtl with inf, but must produce full capacity 8 units/turn).

Pin down Japan:
Goal one, stay at 40 IPC for as much as possible. Russia must garisson Zingiang, at least for 3 rounds! For the love of Stalin’s mustache they must! And the British must make a suicidal Uk1 against Japan’s soft spots, maybe land ftr in China, sink transport definitely. The USSR/Uk must buy the USA some time.
Goal two, beef up the USN after Pearl Harbor. Attacking fleet (4 sub , 3 DD , 2 BB , 1 AC but since 2 fgt+1 BB survived, cost=82 , 42 from USA1 and 40 from USA2).
Goal three, engage the Japanese!!! Land Bomber to Haway in order to assist your attack. Don t let the Japanese attack you, use a DD as “shield” in front of your fleet and hit the japanese by turn 4 or 5.

This is merely the first “phase” of the game. If the Allies endure the 4-5 first turns, then they must alter their  objectives.

Russia must puch to the Balkans.
England must liberate its colonies.
USA must capture South Pacific.

Balkan express:
Balkans is a key territory, you simultaneously threaten Germany and SEur. It is going to be impossible to do, but this must be the Russian goal.

Liberate colonies:
Not only you regain valuable IPC, but after liberating India you can begin to seriously cripple Japan in continental Asia. Goal is to reach French indochina. Leave Shangai for USA and Manchuria for USSR :-)

South Pasific:
Go for borneo and put an IC there. Japan will take a defencive stance inevitably.

Taking all 12 VC=Impossible, will take 13-hours of meaningless play.
If Japan is left with Japan and Germany looses Paris or Rome, you can call it a day.

Won 2 times in a row as Allies :-D Once Germany capitulated after I sneaked assaulted, captured and held Berlin for 1 round and Second I sneak assaulted Tokyo itself, lost 4 fgt, 2 bombers and land units but my LAST US Marine captured the wretched place and thnx 2 USN kept it for 1 round……

Allies prevail._

[77stranger77]

Advosan - I think I disagree. Then again, I’m more inclined to go for a Kill Germany First Strategy than sending the US after Japan unless they’ve left me some kind of opening.

Goal one, Russia must always have control of the territories adjacent to its factories
Agree to some extent, try to prevent a German advance but keeping Germany out of Ukraine may prove more difficult than you may think. Normally, I would buy 3 inf, 3 tanks rather than 2/2/2 because there’s less risk of a G1 Karelia stack with the extra tank.

Goal two, fortify Karelia.
You don’t mean this as a R1 move I hope? That would be suicidal. And unless the Germans go heavily into Baltic navy, G1 is the only time their inf/art get a boat ride to Leningrad.

Goal one, secure some IPC. The british empire consist of three IPC “blocks”:

1. North atlantic=12 IPC, key territory England, first priority
2. Africa=10 IPC , key teritory Sudan(prime), Rhodesia, second priority
3. India/Pacific=8 IPC , key territory India(prime) , Australia, third priority
   No british player can protect all three blocks. Prioritise, save what can be saved, abandon the rest.
   When I play, I make sure to secure Africa and the British are active in Europe - usually taking Norway and whatever is open. It doesn’t take long for the British to lose their influence in the Indian Ocean/MidEast/Pacific.

Essential: Consider grabbing Borneo, cripples the Jap 4 good.
Grabbing Borneo does NOT cripple Japan for good! The move has it’s costs, no Egypt counterattack(We can assume Germany takes this right?)Japan can retake Borneo at their leisure, although the Americans will be a pain. Point is, it’s not a game over move. If you want to mess with Japan, consider an amphibious assault on French Indo.

Goal two, build an invasion fleet. No need for submarines, since it will be a defence fleet. 4 DD, 1 AC(2 fgt) , 1 BB. Should take 3 rounds, Russia MUST buy you 3 rounds.
Yep, the Brits need a defensive surface fleet BUT it’s precise size varies by the game. No need to buy more defensive navy than Germany can threaten, it’s a waste of resources. If you only need a destroyer and loaded carrier to be safe in the Atlantic, don’t build more.

Goal three, build an invasion force and invade (norway, Karelia, france, EastEU, you name it, everywhere there is an opening). 4 transports and then at each round 4 inf 4 arm (if not enough IPC change arm with rtl respectively, or if even less change rtl with inf, but must produce full capacity 8 units/turn).
Yep, that’s the gist of their purchasing. Planes are also good buys if you can afford them.

Goal one, stay at 40 IPC for as much as possible. Russia must garisson Zingiang, at least for 3 rounds! For the love of Stalin’s mustache they must! And the British must make a suicidal Uk1 against Japan’s soft spots, maybe land ftr in China, sink transport definitely. The USSR/Uk must buy the USA some time.
Staying at 40 is pretty ambitious, I wouldn’t count on it. Sinkiang is tough to garrison if Japan takes China heavily, how many starting pieces do you commit to this? Typically, I’ll keep Sink as a deadzone rather than defend it. I wouldn’t say the transport is mandatory to kill, it’s something I think I’d skip if I countered Egypt.

Goal two, beef up the USN after Pearl Harbor. Attacking fleet (4 sub , 3 DD , 2 BB , 1 AC but since 2 fgt+1 BB survived, cost=82 , 42 from USA1 and 40 from USA2).
Pearl Harbor took place Dec 7, 1941, this game begins Spring of 1942. Just my pet peeve. If you want to go that route, the US needs more of a defensive fleet because their first objective is to advance, probably to the Solomons then to capture an island. What is important is their defensive strength.

Goal three, engage the Japanese!!! Land Bomber to Haway in order to assist your attack. Don t let the Japanese attack you, use a DD as “shield” in front of your fleet and hit the japanese by turn 4 or 5.
Landing the bomber on Hawaii might not be a good idea. Depending on how Japan played the first turn, Japan could take Hawaii, kill the bomber, and hold that seazone on J2.

Balkan express:
Balkans is a key territory, you simultaneously threaten Germany and SEur. It is going to be impossible to do, but this must be the Russian goal.
Balkans is almost always impossible to reach, at first I didn’t see you say how impossible it is. More likely, if Russia makes it that far, they will be in Eastern Europe supporting the UK and possibly US.

Liberate colonies:
Not only you regain valuable IPC, but after liberating India you can begin to seriously cripple Japan in continental Asia. Goal is to reach French indochina. Leave Shangai for USA and Manchuria for USSR smiley
As the Allies, one of my top priorities is control over Africa. Then one Africa is secure, I send my units to the Middle East. Pushing Japan out of India mid game isn’t something you can count on. Holding Persia is hard enough. Allies have to have won if they can push Japan out of Asia without losing Russia and/or Africa.

South Pasific:
Go for borneo and put an IC there. Japan will take a defencive stance inevitably.
Yep, an island complex is my goal in a Pacific game too. East Indies and Philippines aren’t bad locations either, depends on the game.

Are you up for a game of 42? If you haven’t done a Play by Forum game before, I can help you. I want to see you put some of this into practice if you’re Allies or to give you a different take on how to play them if I’m Allies. I’d take either side or we can play two games and switch sides.