L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43)

[trulpen]

@trulpen said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):

(6 inf, 2 mech)

[jkeller]

I apologize I got emotional and said something I shouldn’t have I just know I’m right and felt like you guys are ganging up on me because I’m the new guy. Here are all the cases where loading transports is disallowed. Let me know if you see this situation there.

“During your Combat Move phase in which you entered into a state of war, your transports that are already in sea zones that have just become hostile may be loaded in those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea zones). In effect, transports may be loaded in their initial sea zones for amphibious assaults before war is declared, while the sea zone is still friendly.

Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same sea zone to conduct combat (you can’t load units while in a hostile sea zone),

Transporting Multinational Forces: Transports belonging to a friendly power can load and offload your land units, as long as both powers are at war. This is a three-step process:

1. You load your land units aboard the friendly transport on your turn.
2. The transport’s controller moves it (or not) on that player’s turn.
3. You offload your land units on your next turn.

Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase.”

So that is literally everything in the rulebook pertaining to loading transports. None of them disallow it in this situation. In fact In case of multinational it’s almost an identical situation . The last bullet is closest to disallowing it but if you read it carefully you can see it is referring to moving the transport to another sea zone which is clearly not possible as the transport participated in combat phase. But since it was not loaded or unloaded in combat move or in combat it can still load so long as it doesn’t move. And again the reason I know that (other than the multinational example which pretty much makes it clear that loading a transport is a move by the land unit and the transport moving between sea zones is a move by the transport) is that it specifically says moving to a “coastal friendly territory” and also it uses the word “and” instead of “or”.

[trulpen]

The turn when entering into war is not applicable and neither is the multinational force, since it’s a uninational force at hand.

The last one is relevant and the one that’s been referred to earlier.

“Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase.”

I see your point about the “can move”, but as I see it it’s rather that the “and” means either or. If they “loaded, moved, offload, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase” they will neither be able to move nor load or unload during NCM.

[trulpen]

@jkeller said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):

I apologize I got emotional and said something I shouldn’t have I just know I’m right and felt like you guys are ganging up on me because I’m the new guy.

Apology accepted. I hope we get past this and keep up a good spirit. No one is ganging up on you, although I understand that you feel that way.

[jkeller]

@trulpen but it doesn’t say “either or”. Those are your words. It uses the word “and”. And also the fact it specifically refers to moving to a “friendly coastal territory” means it is referring to one continuous action. Moving to a friendly coastal territory AND loading or offloading. Other wise why would it have to be a friendly coastal territory. It could simply say “moving OR offloading”. It’s referring specifically to ther combined action. So it’s saying moving to a friendly coastal territory to load/offload but by not disallowing staying out and loading/offloading it is implying it is legal because by default “ A transport can load units while in any friendly sea zone along its route, including the sea zone it started in.” After dd is cleared the sea zone is obviously friendly at that point. The transport is not participating or moving in this phase only the land units are.

But let’s step back and think also what is logical here. Should an island nation like Japan be held back completely by one destroyer? Despite having 50 times the force in the region it can never move any material from its homeland to other theaters of war? Clearly this is not what the game makers intended. In such cases unless the letter of the law is VERY clear to the contrary then we should err on the side of spirit of the law. And if anything the letter of the law is on the other side. The fact a few people here are considering transport to be “moving” in the noncombat phase when it is in fact not moving ( as made very clear in multinational force case) means it’s perhaps our internal bias that the transport is making a move but it’s not in the rules as stated.

[gamerman01]

jkeller, you can take this straight to the maker of the rulebook if you like. His name is Krieghund and he frequents the FAQ thread. It is he who explained to me when I recently had the question as to why you can’t load an allied unit onto a transport and simultaneously unload a unit previously loaded onto that allied transport. Part of his answer involved the transport “moving” within the sea zone!

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/18412/global-2nd-edition-q-a-aag40-2/13?_=1657085359270 Back up to the June 17 posts.

But regardless, as I quoted the rulebook before, it’s this simple: “once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat, they can’t move or participate in the noncombat move phase of the turn.” I’m quite sure this means the transports that have been involved in combat cannot load, because that is participating.

Again, I invite you to ask Krieghund on the thread linked above - there is none higher than him on the rules. He wrote the book and he is brilliant.

I am the league moderator and have been for years, and am respected for being objective and have never even been accused of taking a side. I am not offended, I just want to echo trulpen that you are not being ganged up on - also that Adam and trulpen don’t know each other - I mean, I trust Adam to be objective as well. We three agree on the conclusion on this matter because we are all playing according to the golden rule that once a unit has moved or been involved in the combat phase, it can’t do anything at all in the noncombat phase with the exception of planes. I didn’t see you respond to these points I made.

I certainly don’t want to make a final ruling on a rule in a league game unless I’m 100% sure, and sometimes Krieghund’s interpretation of the rules surprise me, I admit, so please summarize your question to Krieghund in the FAQ and don’t bother with all your reasonings or what trulpen or you or I think. Just ask him the question and he will give you the certain answer. I expect he’ll quote the same rule sections I already have.

[gamerman01]

Or if you like, I will ask the question in the FAQ, just let me know.

[gamerman01]

Oh, and also, I pointed out that this is no different than a single destroyer blocking a massive fleet from moving through, or even a single infantry blocking 1,000 tanks. That’s Axis and Allies and always has been.

The way the 1940 rules are written, a single destroyer built into your zone prevents your transports in that zone from non-comming. You’ve now heard from 3 of the top players in the league, but I understand if you’re new, certainly, ask the writer of the rulebook as I said. No disrespect meant.

I also tried hard to dull the sting by suggesting that trulpen allow you to load up 6 units on 3 transports (because you built 2 more, so limited to 3), but I can’t require him to do that because he’s done nothing wrong. It sounds like he’s considering allowing that although he does not have to, which shows his sportsmanship.

[jkeller]

Well even though it makes no sense and the wording does not indicate that loading is not allowed he did as you say quote the same section as you. Very disappointing to be honest I would rather take the loss on this game and have them interpret that rule differently because it really diminishes the realism of this version of the game unnecessarily in my opinion. But like good lawyers we have to use the rulebook to our advantage whenever possible to be the best players we can be whether the rule makes sense or not so there is no shame in that! This is a game after all! Unfortunately for me from reading the rule it was not at all clear to me that was the rule in fact I still believe the way it was written it implied moving for the purpose of loading was disallowed but not loading per se. So it does make it difficult for me in this situation but oh well it is what it is.

[jkeller]

“ once a unit has moved or been involved in the combat phase, it can’t do anything at all in the noncombat phase with the exception of planes. I didn’t see you respond to these points I made.”

I did actually. Just like a multinational transport the transports are not moving from the docks in Japans harbors so are not doing anything at all in noncombat; the land units are simply loading onto them. But we have heard from the ultimate authority and no set of rules is perfect so we just have to live within the rules that are set for us, in life and in this game!

[trulpen]

Like I said earlier, it doesn’t make that huge of a difference for you in practise.

If you look at the board you see that you can move the tr’s to z20 during CM. They do nothing this turn, but the next turn they’ll be able to load up to 9 land units and thus wreak havoc on Korea. Missing a few art there doesn’t matter with all that abundant air available.

[jkeller]

Do you want to make the edit as to what you will allow me to change as well as your own changes due to the ambiguity and difference in interpretations of the rulebook? I don’t want to presume anything else at this point LOL. Hopefully like you said we can continue on in good fun in this and other games. I do apologize again for any insinuations of bias etc

[trulpen]

I’ve considered it, but sorry, can’t do that really. There would have to be cancelled battles and stuff. Just too much that needs to be changed.

Anyway, the des primarily cancelled a direct attack on Korea. The issue that’s been most debated was whether units would be able to be picked up during NCM in z6.

Since there’s a good alternative to that, namely z20, I actually don’t think there’s much call to edit stuff. I’m confident you’ll take down Korea in two turns without much resistance.

[jkeller]

@trulpen unfortunately due to the rules reading that way which was very misleading to me at least I made buys of transports and troops in Japan based on that 🤦‍♂️ As well as forgoing reclaiming money islands and basing my entire fleet in Japan etc etc so this has really screwed up everything

[jkeller]

@jkeller its ok lets just play on

[trulpen]

Hope for a continuously good and fun game. No hard feelings.

I guess the main problem was the oversight of a built des preventing loading (have not played revised, but that version then has a different rule set regarding this). That was simple and direct and not opposed. All the other stuff is a different story.

[gamerman01]

@jkeller said in L21 playoff OOB jkeller(X) vs trulpen (L+43):

In axis and Allie’s a “movement” is from one territory or sea zone to another. There are no rules or even a definition of movement WITHIN a territory or sea zone. So by rule the transport is NOT moving in noncombat so this rule you quotes does not apply in this case

I thought a similar thing until asking Krieghund recently about an allied unit loading on another ally’s transport at the same time as a unit on the transport unloading on the other coast. To my surprise, he said the transport is moving within the zone so you can’t do that because the ally’s transport must only move on his turn. So there is such a thing as moving to a coast within a sea zone, but I never knew that before either. Agree it’s not spelled out in the rules. So no shame there. :wink:

But in your case, if you just think of units moving in the combat movement phase or conducting combat in the combat phase, they are done unless they’re aircraft. I don’t think it says exactly that in one place, but it’s true when you put all the rules together. I hope that helps.

[gamerman01]

This post is deleted!

[jkeller]

@gamerman01 yeah I think the rules don’t exactly make sense in that way but it is what is. I’m no military expert but at least from my understanding transports don’t participate in combat much (other than to hide)especially in a home port and don’t really do much in loading either. But them’s the rules we have to play by so what it is what it is!

[gamerman01]

Yeah :facepunch: at least they’re not taken first as casualties to protect the warships any more. And I remember them shooting down aircraft like AA with their 1 defense.