L22 #1 trulpen (X+6) vs ArtofWar1947 (A) P2V

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

Gamerman wrote back: Hi Art! I can’t find any rules about this in the BM4 notes in Triple A. I actually can’t remember about this rule. Can Trulpen say where this scramble vs. unescorted amphibious assault rule is?

[trulpen]

@artofwar1947 said in L22 #1 trulpen (X+6) vs ArtofWar1947 (A) P2V:

Gamerman wrote back: Hi Art! I can’t find any rules about this in the BM4 notes in Triple A. I actually can’t remember about this rule. Can Trulpen say where this scramble vs. unescorted amphibious assault rule is?

@gamerman01

Regarding amphi:

“The sea zone may be either friendly or hostile, but if it is hostile it must be made friendly through sea combat before the amphibious assault can commence. […] Further, if enemy air units could potentially be scrambled to defend the sea zone, additional units may be moved into the sea zone to combat them in case they are indeed scrambled.” (2nd ed, p 14)

Regarding scramble:

“These air units can be scrambled to help friendly units in adjacent sea zones that have come under attack. They can also be scrambled to resist amphibious assaults from adjacent sea zones, whether or not the territory being assaulted is the territory containing the air base. They may defend against the enemy ships conducting the amphibious assault even if friendly ships are not present.” (2nd ed, p 16)

[trulpen]

L22 #1 trulpen (+6) vs artw P2V.tsvg

Game History

Round: 17

   Purchase Units - Japanese

       Japanese buy 3 artilleries, 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 fighter, 6 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber; Remaining resources: 3 PUs; 6 SuicideAttackTokens; 



   Combat Move - Japanese

       1 infantry moved from Honan to Inner Mongolia

             Japanese take Inner Mongolia from Chinese

       3 artilleries and 8 infantry moved from Yakut S.S.R. to Yenisey

             Japanese take Yenisey from Russians

       1 destroyer moved from 46 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone

       3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers moved from 46 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone

       2 fighters moved from 46 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone



   Combat - Japanese

       Battle in 56 Sea Zone

           Japanese attack with 1 destroyer, 5 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers

           Americans defend with 1 submarine

               Japanese roll dice for 1 destroyer, 5 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers in 56 Sea Zone, round 2 : 6/9 hits, 4,83 expected hits

               Americans roll dice for 1 submarine in 56 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,17 expected hits

               1 submarine owned by the Americans lost in 56 Sea Zone

           Japanese win with 1 destroyer, 5 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6

           Casualties for Americans: 1 submarine



   Non Combat Move - Japanese

       2 artilleries, 4 infantry and 1 marine moved from Dutch New Guinea to 46 Sea Zone

       1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Japan to 7 Sea Zone

       1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Japan to French Indo China

       5 infantry moved from Honan to Hopei

       2 artilleries and 1 infantry moved from Anhwe to Hopei

       1 infantry moved from Shantung to Jehol

       2 infantry moved from Shantung to Anhwe

       2 artilleries moved from Hunan to Hopei

       1 infantry moved from Kwangtung to Hunan

       1 infantry moved from Kwangtung to Kiangsi

       1 infantry moved from Kiangsi to Hopei

       1 infantry moved from Kwangtung to Kwangsi

       2 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from Yunnan to Burma

       2 artilleries and 1 infantry moved from French Indo China to Yunnan

       1 bomber moved from Southern Manchuria to French Indo China

       1 bomber moved from Buryatia to French Indo China

       1 submarine moved from 76 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone

       4 carriers, 1 cruiser and 1 marine moved from 46 Sea Zone to 43 Sea Zone

       5 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers moved from 56 Sea Zone to 43 Sea Zone

       1 submarine moved from 36 Sea Zone to 38 Sea Zone

       1 submarine moved from 132 Sea Zone to 38 Sea Zone

       1 destroyer moved from 36 Sea Zone to 43 Sea Zone

       1 submarine moved from 46 Sea Zone to 36 Sea Zone

       2 artilleries, 1 destroyer, 4 infantry and 3 transports moved from 46 Sea Zone to 43 Sea Zone

       3 infantry moved from 43 Sea Zone to Java

       1 artillery, 3 infantry and 2 transports moved from 7 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone

       1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from 37 Sea Zone to French Indo China

       1 tactical_bomber moved from 7 Sea Zone to French Indo China

       1 fighter moved from Japan to French Indo China

       1 submarine moved from 7 Sea Zone to 21 Sea Zone

       1 carrier and 2 destroyers moved from 7 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone



   Place Units - Japanese

       1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber placed in Japan

       1 carrier and 1 destroyer placed in 6 Sea Zone

       3 artilleries placed in French Indo China

       3 infantry placed in Kwangtung

       3 infantry placed in Shantung



   Turn Complete - Japanese

       Japanese collect 70 PUs; end with 73 PUs

       Objective Japanese 6 Home Islands: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 76 PUs

       Objective Japanese 4 Control Dutch East Indies: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 81 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : -0,17

Japanese regular : 1,17

[gamerman01]

Sorry, this rules question was confusing at first -

I didn’t know you were playing Path To Victory, so the sea zones Art mentioned didn’t make sense. I’m now pulling up the map, and see the situation.
The rules you point out, trulpen, are in the 2nd edition rulebook and I don’t think they are covering the situation of allied ground units getting off the transports of another power. I guess that’s why BM4 rules apply (P2V uses BM4 rules? I don’t remember), which is why you’re saying the BM4 rules say that “you may not conduct an amphibious assault from an allied transport if the defender could scramble and you have no other combat units to protect that transport.”

I know you just allowed it and facilitated the game, but I’m interested in this question. I guess I never did move on to BM4 myself so wasn’t totally aware of each of the amendments made. It does sound like a needed rule - after all, it happened right here in this game.

So if PTV uses BM4 rules, then I agree with trulpen that the UK inf and art can’t attack Scotland and no planes have to be scrambled to stop them. Interesting.

But to be clear, I’m not saying anything has to be done about it - trulpen agreed to allow it.

[trulpen]

Actually, I think atleast one fig would have to be scrambled in order to precent the amphi. Otherwise the sz would be friendly. I believe the notes to BM4 is simply wrong regarding this. If not, it doesn’t really make any sense.

[gamerman01]

You’d have to check with the ones who came up with the rule to be sure, but it’s written pretty clearly that you don’t have to scramble.

[trulpen]

Hmm, it’s actually not a strict rule, but it’s a note. They have been rephrased before. If we look at the rulebook, I think it’s pretty clear you don’t prevent an amphi by only the threat of a scramble.

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

The note for a scramble stopping the invasion from a non-invader’s TT needs to be in more than BM4 notes for those of us do not play BM4 or (BM3).

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

Intercept SBR in W. Germany?

Scramble to defend SZ 56?

Trulpen-vs-AoW-US-17-scramble.tsvg

[trulpen]

@artofwar1947 said in L22 #1 trulpen (X+6) vs ArtofWar1947 (A) P2V:

The note for a scramble stopping the invasion from a non-invader’s TT needs to be in more than BM4 notes for those of us do not play BM4 or (BM3).

I agree.

However, I’d say that it’s rather in the basic rule-set than the notes.

No scramble nor intercept.

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen said in L22 #1 trulpen (X+6) vs ArtofWar1947 (A) P2V:

However, I’d say that it’s rather in the basic rule-set than the notes.

I agree with Gamerman that the basic rules do not clearly indicate what a scramble can or cannot do against a amph operation by UK land units from a US TT. If the scramble cannot destroy the TT, why is there any reason to believe that it can stop the amb operations? The basic rules are in need of clarification in a forum all have access.

Forgot the Tac raid on the airfield in W. Germany

German AA @ 1 [dice 1d6<=1]

US Tac damage [dice 1d6]

[dicebot]

1d6<=1: 2; Hits: 0
1d6: 4

[trulpen]

On the contrary, I feel the basic rules are crystal clear. The sz needs to be friendly, not hostile, in order for an amphi to follow through. Doesn’t matter if the tr itself can be targeted or not.

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

Someone should tell the AA programmer.

[ArtofWar1947]

@artofwar1947

Scotland

UK Inf and art [dice 2d6<=2]
Ger inf [dice 1d6<=2]

[dicebot]

2d6<=2: 1, 1; Hits: 2
1d6<=2: 4; Hits: 0

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

Trulpen-vs-AoW-UK-17.tsvg

[ArtofWar1947]

@artofwar1947

Hold on. Need to check something.

[ArtofWar1947]

@artofwar1947

Needed to move 3 UK units from N. Caucasus to S. Caucasus: Inf, Mi and Tank. Will edit IT-17 map.

[trulpen]

L22 #1 trulpen (+6) vs artw P2V.tsvg

Game History

Round: 17

   Purchase Units - Italians

       Italians buy 1 destroyer and 1 submarine; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; 



   Combat Move - Italians

       1 infantry moved from Tambov to Kursk

             Italians take Kursk from British

       1 infantry moved from Komi to Evenkiyskiy

             Italians take Evenkiyskiy from Russians

       1 bomber moved from Southern Italy to Egypt



   Combat - Italians

       Strategic bombing raid in Egypt

               British roll AA dice in Egypt : 0/1 hits, 0,17 expected hits

           Bombing raid in Egypt rolls: 7 and causes: 6 damage to unit: factory_minor

           Bombing raid in Egypt causes 6 damage total. 



   Non Combat Move - Italians

       1 bomber moved from Egypt to Greece



   Place Units - Italians

       1 destroyer and 1 submarine placed in 99 Sea Zone



   Turn Complete - Italians

       Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 2

           Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 95 Sea Zone. Rolls: 6,2

       Italians collect 17 PUs (2 lost to blockades); end with 18 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

British AA : -0,17