Thoughts about AAE40

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Imperious:

I am sure france will fall on G1, but this type of thing needs to be scripted or Germany will not have a chance to get to 1941.

I dont see why it needs to be scripted, what if you had it so Russia automatically enters 3 turns after France falls. That would allow for the possilbity that France would hold Germany off longer than it did historically without dooming Germany to defeat.

If the Battle of France is going to be completly scripted I would rather have the start date in July.

I also find it stragne how Germany is going to start off with control of the netherlands and Beglium. Those countries were realy both part of the campagin and German movement through Belgium and the ardennes were what decided the battle.

Sometimes i wonder if the people making these game know anything about history or if they just dont care.

[Imperious Leader]

I dont see why it needs to be scripted, what if you had it so Russia automatically enters 3 turns after France falls.

Then a trick becomes possible. Germany deliberately never takes France entirely. Rather it kills all but one unit, and takes over the entire British overseas territories, then uses its might to wipe out Russia in a few turns. If UK is at 40 IPC with england at 6 or 8, it can take 32-34 off if its not having to deal with Russia.

It has to be a bit scripted thats why Larry has avoided such a type of game before because he was aware of this.

Germany can still avoid france, but it would be a mistake for them. Remember the balance of forces was basically equal between France/ BEF and Germany… its near impossible to account for different tactics and french morale to account for the total defeat in 30 days of the french.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Imperious:

Then a trick becomes possible. Germany deliberately never takes France entirely. Rather it kills all but one unit, and takes over the entire British overseas territories, then uses its might to wipe out Russia in a few turns. If UK is at 40 IPC with england at 6 or 8, it can take 32-34 off if its not having to deal with Russia.

Good point, but he is a more developed idea. The allied or the French players can decide to surrender to the Axis at anypoint in the game. When this occurs French forces cease to be controled by the allies and instead become one of those pro-axis neutrals. In addition this also starts the three turn count-down to Russia’s entry.

These rules both represents Vichy France, and reduces scripting without any loopholes.

It is also my understanding that besides the panzer divisions, dive-bombers, and motivated soldeirs, one of the keys to the Germans succes was a last minute decision to have a large force go through the Ardennes( which was thought immpassible) instead of Belgium.

I think if each side gets 12 IPCs to place additional units at the start of the game, and that Germany has multiple entry points into France, the first turn of the game will not be as nearly as scripted as it sounds like it is going to be.

[Imperious Leader]

The allied or the French players can decide to surrender to the Axis at anypoint in the game.

This brings in a new trick. The French player “crashes” into the axis and starts the clock ASAP.

Anyway you cut it i have tried all of these ideas and they never work.

Its easier when X starts war on X turn…always fixed. It cannot work in these types of games because we cannot account for much in the way of complexity that could counterbalance the various tricks from success.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Imperious:

The allied or the French players can decide to surrender to the Axis at anypoint in the game.

This brings in a new trick. The French player “crashes” into the axis and starts the clock ASAP.

lol, that would be funny.

but then the allied player would not be able to use the French peice to defend France and kill Germans.

Wouldnt it only make sence for the French player to surrender when all of his forces were destroyed and isnt that historical?

I mean if France decides if they are going to surrender after every one has taken there turn, they would only surender if they were beaten and had no way of fighting, just like what accually happened.

In most games I think France would surrender their first turn, but with this rule there is an elegeant way to reprsent vichy france and it does offer the possiblity that France will survive to fight in the second turn while not wrecking game balance.

Otherwise what is the point of starting May 10th.

[Imperious Leader]

lol, that would be funny.

but then the allied player would not be able to use the French piece to defend France and kill Germans.

But then also he would have less Vichy forces left to fight against the allies when they land. Depending on how france is set up in the game they may want to do what they can to make it bad for Germany. If you had a “on turn x the Soviets do X” then it would not matter either way and the French can try to hold out or whatnot.

Frances defeat and the Soviets entry are not connected. The Soviets should be ready to attack on turn X regardless of what happens to france. its not related.

Wouldn’t it only make sence for the French player to surrender when all of his forces were destroyed and isn’t that historical?

They should surrender when paris is captured

I mean if France decides if they are going to surrender after every one has taken there turn, they would only surender if they were beaten and had no way of fighting, just like what accually happened.

yes so lets leave out the linked entry of the Soviets because its forcing france to so all kinds of ahistorical things.

In most games I think France would surrender their first turn, but with this rule there is an elegeant way to reprsent vichy france and it does offer the possiblity that France will survive to fight in the second turn while not wrecking game balance.

france should not surrender unless they are beaten. Nobody would play france if they just “go away on turn X”

Capitals are the VC along with VC, so in France’s case both occur when paris falls.

Otherwise what is the point of starting May 10th.

Its to control Germany from separating its forces to capture little nations and having to regroup to take france. If it has too many pieces to and can do both, it will get too strong too fast and imbalance the game. The choice was to script the first battle and make it easy to just get after france. Otherwise we have the attack Egypt people showing up and telling everybody YOU MUST TAKE EGYPT ON TURN g1 or the game is lost kind of thing. Now Germany does not bite more than it can chew and many more historical battles are now possible. My 2 cents

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Imperious:

But then also he would have less Vichy forces left to fight against the allies when they land. Depending on how france is set up in the game they may want to do what they can to make it bad for Germany. If you had a “on turn x the Soviets do X” then it would not matter either way and the French can try to hold out or whatnot.

Frances defeat and the Soviets entry are not connected. The Soviets should be ready to attack on turn X regardless of what happens to france. its not related.

I disagree, France keept Germany honest in regards to its pact with the soveits. Once France was out of the picture Hitler turned his armies east and attacked the Soveits. Its only logical that the soveits would began considering war once they realized that they were Germany’s last opponent on the continent. Although Stalin was out to lunch on predicting the Germnies betrail, any Russian General realized the signs. So they are realted.

I am not sure what your first paragraph was saying, but my idea is basically have it so that France wants to fight Germany but when they are defeated they surrender and start the coutdown to the USSR’s entry. This is so that the game can be desgin so that the Battle of France is not scripted but if the French are more succseful than they were historically it does not wreck game balance.
@Imperious:

Otherwise what is the point of starting May 10th.

Its to control Germany from separating its forces to capture little nations and having to regroup to take france. If it has too many pieces to and can do both, it will get too strong too fast and imbalance the game. The choice was to script the first battle and make it easy to just get after france. Otherwise we have the attack Egypt people showing up and telling everybody YOU MUST TAKE EGYPT ON TURN g1 or the game is lost kind of thing. Now Germany does not bite more than it can chew and many more historical battles are now possible. My 2 cents

My point about the start date was to say why not start the game in July 1940 when France was already defeated and Germany had many options instead of a scripted battle of France.

does that make sence?

[Imperious Leader]

I disagree, France keept Germany honest in regards pact with the soveits. Once France was out of the picture Hitler turned his armies east and attacked th Soveits. It only logical that the soveits would began preparring for war once they realized that they were Germanies last opponent on the continent. Although Stalin was out to lunch on predicting the Germnies betrail, any Russian General realized the signs. So they are realted.

Hitler and Stalin were friends since Aug 1939. How does the french defeat trigger the Soviets three turns latter any more than saying the Soviets enter the game as Hitlers enemy on turn X?

Stalin didn’t even believe that Germany would attack first. Soviet policy had nothing to do with France except to say that Stalin wanted the Germans to have a long war in order to weaken Germany, allowing Stalin to claim Finland, Baltic States, even eastern Romania.

Their is nothing linking a collapse of france to entry of the Soviets. After France fell Molotov and Ribbentrop even met over how to carve up the middle east, but Stalin was not too fair about his share in these exploits and wanted his sphere of expansion to include some of Germany’s allies. IN Dec 1940 this predicated Hitlers intent on invading the Soviets because he could not negotiate with them on equal terms. France had no play in these meetings.

why not start the game in July 1940

Then we could not get a french army. Now thanks to this we at least can use some new sculpts for a 1939.

I would love the wipe out france on G1 in every game. I can claim at least some satisfaction if i lose, knowing i took out france. To remove this is to take fun from the game.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Imperious:

why not start the game in July 1940

Then we could not get a french army.

Yah, well there is the real reason :-D. I agree, I have desired French infantry for sometime. But from a gameplay point of veiw July 1940 is a better starting point if the battle of France is too be scripted.

I understand what your saying that the Fall of France does not directly inluence Russia like the accualy negotiaious between Molotov and Ribbentrop. But these are just dipolmats and what ever there decide is a prodcut the military and political envirment, that being one where France has fallen and the Soveit are not getting the long Franco-German war they wished. I think it is reasonable to say that the Nazi’s succses caused the deterioration of Soveit-German ties. Once the pact was unnecsisary to protect Germany fronm a two front war(or so Hitler thought) the Germans began to get more agressive in there diplomacy and eventually invaded. In order to allow for balance in the game I think the logic must folloe that if Germany had wated any longer to build up for an invasion of the USSR, the USSR would have struck first or at least intensily increased there war readyness to a point where in A&A they can collect income and attack German peices.

If France and Germnay were in a long war, then the USSR would have little reason to increase its defence or attack Germany. Once France falls, it takes Russia three turns to realize what they must do. Its not complelely supportable, but with only two politcal forces(the allies and the axis) it should capture the feeling and timing and should allow for the game desginers to create a more dynamic Battle of France.

[Adlertag]

Larry will never make a rule that says “Russia cant attack Germany before Turn 5” like in the Xeno games. ( This is not a complaint, its a praise actually). Larry’s way of solving this is to let Russia start with a lot of infantry only ( good defence but poor attack performance) and also a lot of the forces set up in far east.

Then Germany would face the exactely same decisions they faced in the real war. Attack France or Russia first ? They cant attack Russia before France are finished off, even if Russia start with tiny army, so the game will be kind of scripted anyway, but it is up to  the player to make his final choice.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Adlertag:

Larry will never make a rule that says “Russia cant attack Germany before Turn 5” like in the Xeno games. ( This is not a complaint, its a praise actually). Larry’s way of solving this is to let Russia start with a lot of infantry only ( good defence but poor attack performance) and also a lot of the forces set up in far east.

What our your sources on this? I understand the concept, but it still runs into the problem of if the Battle of France isnt over in one turn, Germany loses, which causes the battle of France to be scripted. I aslo think that if Russia was able to control his forces from the start of the game they would just pull there infantry off the front lines so they were not wiped in Barbarossa, of course if the Germans do not kill large numbers of Russians on their first turn of attacking Russia, they would have no chance of winning.

There really is no reason the battle of France needs to be scripted if France can decide to become an pro-axis neutral at the end of a full round, only then starting the countdown to Russia’s entry.

[Variable]

@Emperor_Taiki:

@Adlertag:

Larry will never make a rule that says “Russia cant attack Germany before Turn 5” like in the Xeno games. ( This is not a complaint, its a praise actually). Larry’s way of solving this is to let Russia start with a lot of infantry only ( good defence but poor attack performance) and also a lot of the forces set up in far east.

What our your sources on this? I understand the concept, but it still runs into the problem of if the Battle of France isnt over in one turn, Germany loses, which causes the battle of France to be scripted. I aslo think that if Russia was able to control his forces from the start of the game they would just pull there infantry off the front lines so they were not wiped in Barbarossa, of course if the Germans do not kill large numbers of Russians on their first turn of attacking Russia, they would have no chance of winning.

Would it be possible to rebalance this by starting with a stronger German setup? That way the Germans could effectively choose to attack France or Russia. By giving Germany X pieces to setup in any German territory, they could begin the game with four choices: attack France, attack Russia, attack both, or build up stronger defenses. Either way, it keeps Germany from weakening itself to the point of automatically losing. The extra equipment would have to be held to land units though, so you don’t end up with some huge German armada in the English Channel.

[Emperor_Taiki]

Once Germany was at war with France and England( as it is at the start of the game) I have never heard any reason why it would be advisible for Germany attack Russia first, so that should generally not be a practicle possiblity in this game.

What I am talking about is creating a less scripted battle within the Battle of France, I want to decide how many forces are needed to take holland and whether my armor and mech inf should blitz through belgium or the ardennes( if there is to be no ardennes territory this could be simulated by blitzing through belgium and then deciding which French territory to attack, be it Calais, Central France or Burgendy.) it should be possible( not likely) that France lasts to the second turn  and without Germany being doomed to defeat.

[Adlertag]

This game are being designed by the best brains America has raised, and playtestet during several years by the top players from the A&A community. It will be good.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Adlertag:

It will be good.

Amen brother! I am particularly am excited about how it sounds like tanks, mech inf, tac bombers, and fighters are going to support each other in order to give the game a true blitzkrieg feel.

but i think the game would be even better if there was a proper Battle of France.

dont you argee?

[Variable]

Either way, I can say this. AAE has become one of my favorites due to its unique rules. AAP is close, but a bit complex for newbies. This new pair of games definitely has the potential to revolutionize A&A as we know it. It will give the seasoned player something to really enjoy and  the beginner something to look forward to. Bravo to Larry and the crew :-D

[LuckyDay]

@Imperious:

I would love the wipe out france on G1 in every game. I can claim at least some satisfaction if i lose, knowing i took out france. To remove this is to take fun from the game.

totally worth the whole purchase price!

@Emperor_Taiki:

Yah, well there is the real reason :-D. I agree, I have desired French infantry for sometime.

so has france.  too biting?  ok, how about a question about what the piece would look like?  Can they really make a piece with the shoulder dropping a rifle and running away?

[LuckyDay]

i like the idea of Germany being able to choose to turn first on Russia instead of France/UK and I do not believe that those two would have so readily jumped to help Russia, though they would already be committed to helping Poland.

I’m less inclined to connect the fall of France to the entry of Russia into the war and think that the ‘not before turn X’ is probably the best route available.  I’ve been trying to work out a few territories that Stalin would have linked to his sphere of influence dreams that if ‘number B’ of them were taken or attacked by Germany would awake Stalin to the reality that Hitler would indeed at some point come after him, but it seems that really without this or Barbarossa that Stalin was totally duped by Hitler, much like the alleged ‘Calais’ landings that later crippled Hitler to defend France.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@LuckyDay:

i like the idea of Germany being able to choose to turn first on Russia instead of France/UK and I do not believe that those two would have so readily jumped to help Russia, though they would already be committed to helping Poland.
 
I’m less inclined to connect the fall of France to the entry of Russia into the war and think that the ‘not before turn X’ is probably the best route available.

Well its an indirect conextion that I am making. If Germany is fighting france then there is less reason the soveits have to fear Germany. Its a way of making the battle of france variable but not dooming Germany.

Anyways, it dosn’t matter anymore. It sounds like the game is starting June 5th(the day after the Germans finally took dunkirk) so the first part of the battle of France is already over and France(while they still have a large potion of theire orignal force) has very few options . I asked Larry about it and although his answer was not the clearest it sounds like he is going a similar route too what Adlertag(bump) suggested he would. IL posted Mr. Harris’s full responce in the AA1942 section.

[Shakespeare]

Will the UK have enuff forces to reinforce France on the 1st turn if Germany attacks the SU first?