ABH and crockett36, (A+69) tutor game

[crockett36]

@arthur-bomber-harris wow. I’ve never seen -5.33

[crockett36]

@crockett36 Wow. That is fantastic. Hey, I wanted to land everything in London if that’s okay.

Gentlemen,

As some of you know I am a fan of a push into Scandinavia by the Russians. I at least would like to pin the enemy in the peninsula.

[trulpen]

@crockett36 said in ABH and crockett36, (A+69) tutor game:

As some of you know I am a fan of a push into Scandinavia by the Russians. I at least would like to pin the enemy in the peninsula.

Maybe this outcome would allow for it, but I doubt it. Especially in OOB stretching out the russian forces is suicide. Russia is simply too weak to be able to do it and if they succeed the extra income will only end up in Germany’s treasury anyway.

On the other hand I’m a huge fan of grabbing the extra NO’s from ME and Africa. This might actually be one of the biggest flaws of OOB.

Might seem like I’m a hypocrite then, but the difference is how much Russia has to invest in the endeavour. Regarding Finland it will take a huge amount of army to counter and subdue the germans (they can easily reinforce and have reach with a lot of air). Something that will be felt deeply very soon in Moscow. Also the offensive stack will easily be trapped and wiped out.

Regarding Iraq it requires at most 2 inf, 1 mech, 1 tank and some air. Depending on how a strafe by UK goes it might even need as little as 1 inf, 1 mech.

I like to expend 2 units that continue to Africa to take the italian territories, preferably by sea on UK-trannies.

When it comes to income the north is worth 3 + 3 for Norway, 2 + 3 for Finland and 1 for Karelia. That’s 12.

The south is worth 2 + 3 for Iraq, 1 +3 for Ethiopia, 0 + 3 for Somalialand, 0 + 3 for Tobruk and 1 + 3 for Libya. That’s 19 if all are achieved. 12-15 of them are easily achieved. Even worth it to risk UK air to clean out italian units.

Simply put, retreat all northern units towards Belarus. You can’t contest the north or even hold Leningrad.

I would also advice on building 12 inf, thereby saving 1 IPC. This means that during R3 you will build one extra inf. Getting art in the mix is possible later if there’s opportunity, but with the expected nazi onslaught all you really need to build are inf to try and protect the capital.

[crockett36]

@crockett36 I also want to be as near the front as possible to see if we can buy ourselves more time.

I’m assuming we bring at least 6 back from Siberia. If we moved 12 to Sakha, that communicates that we are going back to Amur and then Manchuria, pinning troops in the north.

[trulpen]

I think that’s good. 12 inf, 2 aa by Siberia should be enough to safeguard it. If J goes after the north it will of course not hold, but that will then be of great cost of less progress elsewhere. Totally not worth it, so R should feel safe atleast during the early rounds.

In OOB a DOW between R and J is of no real consequence. Another flaw. The only thing that really matters is the activation of Mongolia.

[trulpen]

And I would leave them in Buryatia, just to be able to avoid being trapped.

[trulpen]

@crockett36 said in ABH and crockett36, (A+69) tutor game:

I also want to be as near the front as possible to see if we can buy ourselves more time.

It’s rather futile, unless the opponent won’t make advancements, which you can’t count on. If the red army contests the german forces too early, the SS will stampede all over them.

You need to get your stuff back to Bryansk and when you can’t hold it, back to Moscow. That’s Stalin’s only hope really along with UK-figs popping in from the ME (extra important if you achieve some serious bonus income from the south).

[crockett36]

@trulpen The south is worth 2 + 3 for Iraq, 1 +3 for Ethiopia, 0 + 3 for Somalialand, 0 + 3 for Tobruk and 1 + 3 for Libya. That’s 19 if all are achieved.

This isn’t exactly straight forward. I’m assuming t2 Barbarossa. That means what turn for each of the above?
Iraq t3? Eth t5? Som t6? Tob t5? Lib t6? And every turn we wait, Britain could be benefiting from 2 ipcs they can gain on t1. 4 ipc loss. Though by t6 that will be dwarfed by 20 ipcs earned by the soviets between t3 and t6.

I’ve seen you do it and it’s impressive. Again, adds to the German bank if Moscow falls?!

What you fail to mention is the negative ipcs lost by Germany in the battle for Scandinavia. No iron ore bonus and the loss of Nor/Fin=5+3+2=-7+11 is an 18 point ipcs swing. In addition, it opens up a neutral crush and keeps the quickest supply route for Brit figs open, Karelia.

Can’t imagine him going into Amur. Mostly want to pull him apart by making him keep a defensive force in Manchuria. But I can compromise with Bury.

[crockett36]

@trulpen I understand that, but a strong Russian force one step off the front threatens counter attack and can make him bunch up and not be adventurous, gaining Russian territories and factories earlier than they should be grabbed. In other words, I will not retreat unless forced to by a superior force.

[trulpen]

That’s very true, if Russia takes Finland and Norway it’s -10 for G.

This game basically favours overforce. Having a large stack in Scandinavia will be most likely wiped out on the cheap.

I wouldn’t expect it, but if there’s a GDOW2, then Iraq is possible already R2. Just make sure in that case to keep pansar in Caucasus.

That’s a crossroad, whether to go with this plan (with the risk of fast-movers to sit inactive for a turn) or with the idea of supporting China. I vote for the former.

[crockett36]

what is the math on leaving 1/1 forces in Scandinavia. 9 inf, 1 aa gun? We trap him there unless he throws his air force against my aa gun. I’m not committed but I like it a lot more than a free lunch for the Germans up there.

[crockett36]

Regarding Iraq it requires at most 2 inf, 1 mech, 1 tank and some air. Depending on how a strafe by UK goes it might even need as little as 1 inf, 1 mech.

The air you are referring to here–is that Russian air or British?

[trulpen]

The math is that G has a 50 % risk of losing 1 fig. The effect is that those ruskijs are dead, maybe taking 2-5 inf with them.

[trulpen]

@crockett36 said in ABH and crockett36, (A+69) tutor game:

The air you are referring to here–is that Russian air or British?

Russian.

[trulpen]

It’s beautiful however if UK are able to strafe Iraq on UK2, thereby taking out 1-2 neutral inf while shifting over the units from Persia into Jordan. That maneuver usually requires atleast some air.

[trulpen]

@crockett36 said in ABH and crockett36, (A+69) tutor game:

I’m not committed but I like it a lot more than a free lunch for the Germans up there.

It’s actually a huge commitment considering the context.

I’d rather give the germans a free lunch in Leningrad than in Moscow. ;)

[crockett36]

@trulpen If we back off the front and let him come to us, we can attack him in Karelia. The magic of aggression works for us too. If we take out the Fins in Karelia, it’s hard for him to hit us. transport, no reinforcements and he has to use mobiles to chase us to Norway. Pulling him apart, stretching out the Axis balloon.

I’m really open to all of the above: Scandinavia, Middle East or helping China. No Limit or Squirecam or Surfer? Thoughts?

[crockett36]

@trulpen That is the either-or fallacy. You could have both and one or the other. With the desired reaction from the enemy, we could effect Moscow. I do not want to keep Leningrad, btw.

[surfer]

With an all land buy on G1 + Yugo strafe, Germany is set to quickly pounce on the Eastern front. I would agree with max defense buy for Russia. All inf and save the $1.

I also like the Russians pushing to the south for free money. No sea lion, so I would plan on heavy investment in ME by UK, especially activating Persia UK1. They can strafe Iraq UK2 and activate NW Persia. Russia can then take Iraq R3 with fast movers + plane. The other territories may be in play later.

I do not care about Novgorod. Indefensible except for 1 turn. Retreat to Belarus and reinforce the south with the new units. G can put 24 inf + 5 art in E. Poland + fast movers. Russia just can’t even push back on that, yet.

[trulpen]

@trulpen said in ABH and crockett36, (A+69) tutor game:

I wouldn’t expect it, but if there’s a GDOW2, then Iraq is possible already R2. Just make sure in that case to keep pansar in Caucasus.

With the strafe of Yugo, the chances of a GDOW2 increases dramatically.

Don’t think it’s wise to attack Iraq R2 with 1 mech, 1 tank, 2 fig, 1 tac. It’s too shaky and could get very expensive just for a 5 IPC boost.

Instead an attack there R3 is juicy, with the 2 inf from Caucasus first annexing NWP and position pansar for it during R2. The air is good then in Caucasus.

If no GDOW2, then UK should annex NWP and strafe Iraq so R may go in with the pansar and air R3.

Pansar will be able to get back for the defense of Moscow. The inf won’t. The drawback is that the 2 units that go for Africa (1 is too slow) won’t be part of home-defense, but I believe that the extra income will make up for it.

G won’t be able to shut down production, which is a big plus. In OOB it’s however more about taking out R as early as possible. This makes the strategy of extra income perhaps a bit suspect.

As I said before it’s even more crucial to keep Moscow with this strategy, so the other allies have to go more out of their way in order to support it. It’s an even greater challenge in OOB.