Allies lose every game.

[Omega]

You dont need to invade EVERY turn with UK and US.

IF you take your time with the UK, and have every turn 1-2 additional transports with full capacity, you are threatening Germany,

Lets say I have 4 Transports loaded. I decide to not drop them. I build 1 transport, 1 infantry 1 artillery = 14IPC

Next turn, I have 5 transports and 10 units that can be dropped ANYWHERE on Europe (That’s with Baltic Sea cleared)

What will a competent Germany do? Protect his capital, and maybe France (If he built an IC already) If he continues to send his 10 units production against Russia, he might as well lose Germany on UK’s Turn. (10 units UK with his little air force and shore bombardment CAN win against 10 newly produced Nazi units)

You do the same thing with the USA. They have to do it slowly. The most important is that you make sure that your fleet will survive to any Aircraft/navy units. Once that is done, then all is left is to produce units and proceed with invading Morocco. When Morocco is invaded, build more transports to make a chain :
USA –> Moroco
Moroco --> USA
Moroco --> France or Italy

Once both UK and USA can threaten Europe, the game is pretty much over. All you have to do is to slow down the Japanese on the East.

Of course, this doesn’t always work. Dices can dictate the game.
Say Germany launch a desperate attack on Russia and wins it with almost no loss. This can change the game to a point where UK and USA must act NOW.
This can be hardly achieved too if Germany builds alot of air (he can easily afford 1-2 plane per turn) or if he buys navy. Because a Germany with 40+ IPCS can easily divert some of his money to builds units to destroy the British naval forces. If British naval forces are destroyed in the mid-late game, I think Allies just lost the game.

Robert

[BigRedOne]

I wouldn’t have taken the time to elaborate on my points if I had been offended by your remarks; I just wanted to point out that it is quite possible to win as the Allies.  The key is to go KIF by beating them down thru SBR and eventually taking Rome by sea thru the Med, or overland from Fra.  Once they are eliminated, the Axis player(s) loses their ability to counter the UK-US 1-2 punch, which means that Germany will fall sooner or later.  Check out my league game against Panther to see this strategy in action (it doesn’t play out exactly as I wrote, but of course the actual tactical actions are determined in a large part by my opponents’ actions) before you play your game.  I will of course play a game against you if you still want to see the practical application of what I’m talking about.

Also, three other points of clarification:
The US can bridge units to Fra in one turn by moving them overland into Wca, and then staging out of Z9.  This sea zone is critical to the US troop shuck, as it can hit both Fra and Alg in one round (although watch for German bombers out of Fra!).  It just makes sense to start hitting Alg on round two as it is the first place the US can make its presense felt in an effective way (and begins the all-important process of eliminating Italy’s NOs and IPCs), but switch to the Eca/Z9 staging area as soon as feasible.

Second, you can’t compare the UK production of 8 units to Germany’s 10–because Germany has to split its attention to the East.  You have 20 Allied production spots (8 UK + 12 Russian) vs. 16 Axis (10 German + 6 Italian); in actual practice, the amount of locations that can be fully utilized is more like 16 Allied (8 UK + 8 Russian) vs. 13 Axis (10 German + 3 Italian), even if the Germans capture Kar, it only gives them 15 spots (and its no loss to the Allies because after the first turn or so, the Russians can no longer fill their 12 spots anyway).  The US production shipping across the Atlantic at a good 4-6+ units a turn plus aircraft is just icing on the cake!

Finally, I forgot to mention the UK DD/tran with an inf and arty out of Aus.  This force can reach Z12 by turn 3, and can reinforce Alg or recapture Gib as required.

Good luck in your future endeavors as the Allies!

[Funcioneta]

@BigRedOne:

The Japanese may get strong quickly, but they can’t do it all, and I have to believe that a Polar Express that would seriously threaten the US will divert major resources from Japan’s other offensives, allowing the Russians, Chinese and British time to mobilize against and defeat them.

The question is: what chineses? China is killed J1. What british? They cannot hold a factory in India (anyway, India IC is against KGF spirit), and starting units will not resist forever. The soviets are the only ones that can really send something, but they are too busy with western axis usually, and they will be very busy if USA is sticked to defend american mainland.

I admit that soviets could at least annoy a bit, but puppet China gives Japan a nice buffer against that tactic (that was indeed a option in Revised). Puppet China is a great addition to Axis team, not as good as Italy, but almost. You see the irony: A&A was 3 allies vs 2 axis, now is 3 allies vs 4 axis  :wink:

[BigRedOne]

A few Russian infantry diverted into China can help stall the Japanese long enough to accumulate more “free” Chinese infantry, especially if Japan is busy trying to convoy units into Alaska.  And, as I pointed out before, if the UK tank and/or fighter survive in Egy, they can link up with the Trj and Ind forces in Per for a pretty strong 5xInf, Arty, (tank), Ftr, and AA.  This can be bolstered by fighters or bombers coming from the UK (especially if Egy is wiped out on G1), and once again will force Japan to commit some serious forces to overcome.  I don’t believe that the Japanese can simultaneously mount a credible Polar Express, gobble up Siberia, subdue China, grab Australia, land in Africa and push thru India-Persia against those kind of threats.  Something will have to give, even if it just means that they ignore Africa and Siberia (which will take a 10-IPC or so junk out of their potential “Godzilla” income).

[Lucifer]

I still think axis are slightly favored, but theres no reason to believe that axis are more favored in 41 +NOs than allies in revised. Remember that in 25% of all games Germany will lose the Egy battle, 20%-25% of all games Japan will lose at least one J1 battle which will be a setback for Japan, Japan will use 1-3 rnds more to reach godzilla level, means more time for Russia to fight against Germany and Italy. If Germany do Kalia G1, they could lose 2 air units, etc. I tried some ADS games where I (axis) did not attack Egy or Kalia G1, a good allied player can often give the axis very strong resistance, and also win many games, if axis fails to expand very quickly.

With very efficient allied strats and good playing skills, we’re coming closer to knowing the turn1 “must-do-attacks” for axis, same concept as in revised, in AAR Germany must attack Egy, and if it fails….and if in AA50 Japan fails and do some mistakes J1, it’s also possible for a US pac strat to reduce Japan to a minimum. But it seems like KGF is still more efficient, even when playing with NOs.
In revised a bid is needed, b/c we how play efficient, in AA50 41 + NOs, imo it’s too soon to say for sure about bids, b/c AA50 is much more complex, the first rnd is very different from revised, and a 2-3 (allied) unit(s) bid in AA50 could be devastating if used by skilled players.

[Telamon]

@dondoolee:

Hell, I want to say maybe 1 out of 15 games it is over after G1.  I have seen the entire relevant Brit navy destroyed, Egy Taken, Ukraine, E Pol, Belussia, AND even Kar obliterated before Russia moves.  This is virtually impossible to recover from.

The real gambles for the axis seem to revolve around Egy mostly, along with balancing British fleet vs hitting Karalea or not.  I think that is THE KEY feature of the entire game right there.

Exactly my thoughts on the game at present. Too much seems to come down to the rolls in T1 (with Germany’s being more important than Japan’s, who will steamroll anyway even if set back a turn or so by bad rolls).  A strong G1 (with egypt being the single most important battle) and it’s good night allies.  I think the game would be much better with an extra infantry in Egypt and India, a China that doesn’t crack like a biscuit and more cash for the axis.  I don’t think 1941 is unbalanced, just that it comes down to luck in the first turn as much as skill.

1942 seems to fix most of these problems in my mind - I’ve played it less, but am liking it more so far.  The most important feature is that the UK holds on to africa without dispute for the first few turns, so there’s more emphasis on strategy over good dice.  It’s also nice that Germany is relatively stronger compared to Japan.  Japan can actually be quite vulnerable if some of their attacks go bad.  They certainly have to make choices, unlike in 1941 where they can do everything at once without sweating.

[Octopus]

Tarkonis,

Here are a few hints to help you out. Buy more infantry (not necessarily all infantry) with Russia to absorb the German armor. Russia is designed with strategic depth, which means you can lose quite a bit before it really affects you (read: ignore the loss of Karelia). Knowing Germany’s supply lines are long, try landing British troops in Poland to cut off reinforcements to the German lines (or at least keep the German Armor from moving 2 spaces).

The map is also designed to allow Russia to cut off German forces that occupy Karelia so they may not escape.

On the Western Front, while the US takes 2 turns to get to France try timing a large British landing in France at the same time as the US landing. In other words when you take France, dont give it back.

There is an easy (cheap) way to stop the Polar Express, you just have to be imaginative to figure it out.

Explore the Allies a bit more….I see no reason they cannot win.

[tarkonis]

Thanks for all your help :) i’ll try my best to put all the advice into practice.

[Corbeau Blanc]

@General:

Hi mate,

Thanks very much for your response… and while I appreciate that you may be more versed in the inner workings and tactics of the game than I am… I don’t really understand some of your remarks.

Why isn’t India threatened?  The Japanese will take India on the next round and how am I able to take it without abandoning Egypt.  There is a carrier and a cruiser of the coast with 2 ftrs if I take it back the Japanese will re trade it with me.  What does “Deadzoning” it mean?

The Germans will Steamroll into karellia on the next turn using the bomber and fighter to assist.  Are you saying I go into Finland and let them take it?  Then my inf will be hitting on 1’s and they will have 2’s for theirs when I re take it.

I usually do buy 6 tanks but I’ve always thought it foolhardy for some reason… Thanks for setting the record straight.

I don’t see what the overall allied strategy is though… What is the aim of my game?  I don’t know how to get enough us forces into the fight to make a difference before Russia falls.  Where should UK invade?  France? Finland? Norway? Should US buy just airforce in the first few rounds to support UK?

Sorry for late reply.

• Deadzoning is an expression related to making a zone a death trap. This is normally achieved by having enough forces within range of the selected open territory to make sure that anything that finish it’s turn there is dead next turn.

In the case I mentioned you, you let them take Karelia one turn yes, BUT you have tanks from moscow within range, the forces you moved into Finland and the forces massed in archangel to hit Karelia. That’s min 8 infantry, 2 artillery, 3 tanks against a 5 armor, 2 artillery, 4 infantry if Germany move all it’s forces in Karelia and leave a gaping hole in Ukraine. Odd’s favor Russia in the subsequent turn to retake Karelia. This should lead to a simple swap from both side, with a buildup behind from both side since a clever German player will want to take Karelia and hold it, not just trade it.

• What I meant by India being not threatened in your exemple: You do have 6 units and 4 fighters within range but if allies intent was to hold on India for an IC strat from the begining, Russia would have sent in 4-6 infantry in Persia turn R1, R2 send 3 tanks +  infantry already in Persia into India before Japan strikes it. Add to that the UK egypt fighter still alive in your exemple. That’s the way to establish a proper India IC.

However, my exemple considered UK evacuated India instead to mass all it’s forces from India-Egypt to hold  Persia, capitalising on the fact Egypt forces were not taken out. ( which is still a logistic nightmare for Axis since it’s a force of 7 inf, 2 art, 1 tank, 1 fighter, 1AA gun.).

• Allies Overall strategy here would be based on Caucasus. It is the key here, since egypt lived in your exemple. With UK massed forces able to hold it’s doors, allies choice there is easy to make:

USA sink Italian fleet asap and remove All remaining pressure on Caucasus. USA secure Africa at same time, denying Italy’s NO. Helps Russia later with it’s own mediteranee landings in balkans/romania ( perhaps even Italy ) and stall Japan as much as they can.

UK build up and land in  Poland/Baltic most of the time to stress/cut German lines even more. France is taken whenever it’s possible.

Russia not having to worry about caucasus and mediteranee landings, having UK  support landings in the north, can really contest Ukraine and even trust trough Romania from Ukraine if left unchecked, achieving her +10 ipc NO while denying Germany NO. Germany will have no choices but shift her attention away from Karelia.

In short, the goal for allies is to have a strong Russia.  UK and USA act as support on each flanks of the Russian trust toward Germany. When Russia makes near if not 50 ipcs by R4, it means the German player is a very sad panda. I even sometimes build 2 russian transport at Caucasus if I see USA can protect them, makes getting the 10 ipc NO even more easy.

[Lucifer]

Deadzone, this expression is mostly used in territory trading, a very important TT we want to own, but we don’t have enough units to secure it, so we take it back and forth each rnd. This usually happens to France in a KGF. TT trading is only useful for a few TTs on the map.

I don’t think (edit) axis should win every game with good players, sometimes axis have bad luck during the first rnd, but if a side can’t win, then we should use a bid, either a unit bid or a cash bid.
Even if it helps reading good strats, what really helps most to improve skills, is to play against players who have more experience than ourselves.

[tarkonis]

Thanks very much for all your advice here.

I tried to put it into action the other day and the allies came out victorious in a 4 round axis concession.  Having said that though my friend who is usually quite shrewed played a surprisingly bad game.  I think it was because I made him think about other poweres other than russia. In round one germany sent a fighter and bomber after my bb and lost both. I bought all bombers and some fleet and sent all the bombers to gibralter from uk and us plus the uk tank from canada and 2 units from us.  This caused mass german panic seeing I had 2 BB now and units landed in rd 1.  He massed air to take them out while I bombed the italian fleet.  Japan was contained by China through indesicive Japanese play.  Uk landed in norway rd 1 but the fleet was destroyed by an all out rd 2 axis airstrike.  But the damage was done because uk linked up with russia rd 2 and retook karellia which was “deadzoned”.  The russians broke out in all area’s.

From there the germans were being outproduced from rd 2 by all allied factions and it was all over.  I didnt invade france once, with 12 tanks from russia landing in berlin the russians won the day.

The key for me to the allied push is Russia.  If you can keep the pressure off her then you have won the game.

Thanks everyone.

[TimTheEnchanter]

@General:

The key for me to the allied push is Russia.  If you can keep the pressure off her then you have won the game.

Thanks everyone.

When you put it that way, it seems so easy! ;)

[axis_roll]

I think the KGF move(s) on this thread are strong but can be countered by the axis.

I particularly like sending some of the extra japanese ftrs to europe to help hold territories germany has taken, to threaten the allied shipping or simply hold territories that need to be held, but if lost, would not cost Germany any of her own planes.

After all, Japan can certainly afford to sacrafice some of her 9 planes for the Axis cause….

[bugoo]

I agree with that Axis-Roll, in a strong KGF i also like using Japan bombers vs UK/Russia and to threaten the navies with a double tap, if the allies didnt buy alot of BBs.

[gamerman01]

I have yet to play a game (solo) where the Allies don’t get steamrolled.

Side note - I think the NO’s make it that much easier for the Axis in 1942, so I have reduced them by 1/2.  First NO met, 2 IPC’s, second NO met, 3 IPC’s (total of 5), all NOs met, 7 IPCs.

I like the NO concept that encourages you to play historically, but come on, Italy getting 22 income after turn one is ridiculous.

[jemo81]

A strategy for the allies that has a very good sucess rate for me personally, is to research for the 3 allied fractions to do the following:

US: to research EVERY round with at least 3 active dices (if you don’t get the research with the first 3 dices, buy another one the next round so you got 4) until heavy bombers and long range aircraft is achieved, and then bomb the s… out of german production + sink the japanese and italian fleets if they are still alive.

UK: build up navy hvile preventing Italy from getting both NO’s and preferably none, but one might be much more achievable. Secondly, take scandinavia in order to make the 2nd russian NO (10ipc) possible, while putting a 1-4 infantery into NWE to annoy the axis, as they need to retake the territory to get one of the german NOs.

Russia: build 1 bomber pr turn until you get 3, as this vil enable you to hit all the deadzone areas in eastern europe (where the germans need to be to get another of their NOs) at low cost (a 2 inf + 1 bomber attack will easily take out 1 inf protecting a teritory). Russian bombers are MUCH MUCH more effective than fighters, as russians should use their inf. for defence and never fighters unless as a last resort. Secondly the extra range of the bombers allows you to reach much more targets without having to land in unsecure territories. Thridly, if things are going well, you can always use the bombers to do SBR on your favorite axis enemy :)

[tarkonis]

I’m still losing with the allies to skilled axis players.  :(  Try Try Try again.

I cant get an invasion force going until turn 3 at the earliest and even then russia is on its knees. :(

[DarthMaximus]

I’ve started to notice myself getting a better feel for the Allies, it took some losses to weed out bad ideas but I’m getting there.

The early turns are magnified in AA50 and dice in rd 1-2 play a much bigger role.  That is where the Advantage comes from, not the setup.  If Ger wins Sz 2 and Egy the Adv shifts to the Axis, if Ger loses one of the two, I’d say you’re in for a 50/50 game, if they lose both Adv Allies.
Egy is more important than Sz 2 but a good showing in Sz 2 can overcome the Allied loss in Egy.

Some helpful notes:

Russia
-if you can hold Kar on R1 do it.  Bonus if you can take Fin as well.  This likely means you can attack Bst on R1
-if you can’t counter Bst, consider a UK ftr to help hold Kar to prevent a G2 attack.
-deadzone Kar if you really want to take Fin and Ger stacked Bst heavy
-buy at least 3 arm if you deadzone Kar, you can buy Rt if you feel you can hold Kar so you can use them to take back Belo/Eukr/Ukr if needed.

UK/US
-on UK 1 always buy an AC and at least 1 trn
-it is a good idea to get a US AC for the Altantic on US 1 as well.
-on UK/US 2 take Nor and place more ships in Sz 3 (or have the US take Nor on US 2)
-whichever power plans on taking Nor have the other one take Alg as heavy as possible.

From here on one power should always be sending something to the Nor/Fin/Kar area while the other takes out the Ita fleet (hopefully Rd 3) and supports northen Afr.

In the meantime the Allied ships in the Pac can all move back to Sz 56 where you can mix in a few sub buys to protect the West coast and still threaten Car Is with your UK trn and troops.

The Big Russian NO is doable, particularly if you take Fin in Rd 1 and Nor in Rd 2.

[jemo81]

@General:

I’m still losing with the allies to skilled axis players.  :(  Try Try Try again.

I cant get an invasion force going until turn 3 at the earliest and even then russia is on its knees. :(

what is your approach and buys with russia.
you usually get 30+ (i very rarely go below 30 with nos) which COULD be used to buy 1 bomber (12), 1inf (3), 1 tank for mobility and cost free blitzability(5). that costs 20 ipc total, and then the rest could be used on cheap units with a bit firepower such as 2 inf supported with 1 art at the price of 10 ipc total. Again I would recomend against buying fighters instead of bombers IF the axis is far from moscow as bombers range and kill-power are just so much better for the louzy 2 extra ipc. Of course if the axis is on the doorsteps, the 4 defensive dice for the fighters might be considered, but otherwise never if you ask me.
p.s. your are not building navy with russia are you? (joke, but just making sure)

[tarkonis]

@Fighter:

@General:

I’m still losing with the allies to skilled axis players.  :(  Try Try Try again.

I cant get an invasion force going until turn 3 at the earliest and even then russia is on its knees. :(

what is your approach and buys with russia.
you usually get 30+ (i very rarely go below 30 with nos) which COULD be used to buy 1 bomber (12), 1inf (3), 1 tank for mobility and cost free blitzability(5). that costs 20 ipc total, and then the rest could be used on cheap units with a bit firepower such as 2 inf supported with 1 art at the price of 10 ipc total. Again I would recomend against buying fighters instead of bombers IF the axis is far from moscow as bombers range and kill-power are just so much better for the louzy 2 extra ipc. Of course if the axis is on the doorsteps, the 4 defensive dice for the fighters might be considered, but otherwise never if you ask me.
p.s. your are not building navy with russia are you? (joke, but just making sure)

Yea man I R1 all sub buy! :P Just kidding  :evil:

I usually just buy all tanks.