I’m not sure why I didn’t take action to prevent that move, maybe I was worried about the attack.
L21 #2 trulpen (X+4) vs Pejon_88 (A) P2V
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@pejon_88 said in L21 #2 trulpen (X+4) vs Pejon_88 (A) P2V:
@trulpen I removed one fighter from the battle. Scramble?
What I remember I don’t really have any choice either way. Full scramble, please.
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TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: British round 6
TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: WW2 Path to Victory, version: 6.1.0
Game History
Round: 6 Combat Move - British 1 bomber and 2 fighters moved from United Kingdom to 115 Sea Zone 4 fighters and 2 tactical_bombers moved from Leningrad to 115 Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from Shan State to Malaya UK_Pacific take Malaya from Japanese 1 infantry moved from Shan State to Siam UK_Pacific take Siam from Japanese 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Shan State to French Indo China 1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Burma to Yunnan 10 infantry moved from Shan State to Yunnan 1 armour and 2 mech_infantrys moved from Anglo-Egyptian Sudan to French Central Africa 1 infantry moved from Alexandria to Tobruk British take Tobruk from Italians 2 infantry moved from Egypt to 83 Sea Zone 2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 83 Sea Zone to 101 Sea Zone 2 infantry moved from 101 Sea Zone to Greece 1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Trans-Jordan to 83 Sea Zone 1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 83 Sea Zone to 101 Sea Zone 1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 101 Sea Zone to Cyprus 1 infantry moved from Trans-Jordan to 83 Sea Zone 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 83 Sea Zone to 100 Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from Alexandria to 100 Sea Zone 2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 100 Sea Zone to 101 Sea Zone 2 infantry moved from 101 Sea Zone to Crete 1 battleship and 1 cruiser moved from 83 Sea Zone to 101 Sea Zone 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, 2 fighters, 3 submarines and 2 transports moved from 113 Sea Zone to 115 Sea Zone Combat - British Germans scrambles 3 units out of Western Germany to defend against the attack in 115 Sea Zone Battle in Greece Battle in Crete Battle in 115 Sea Zone British attack with 1 bomber, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, 8 fighters, 3 submarines, 2 tactical_bombers and 2 transports Germans defend with 3 carriers, 1 destroyer, 6 fighters, 4 submarines and 3 tactical_bombers British roll dice for 3 submarines in 115 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/3 hits, 1,00 expected hits British roll dice for 1 bomber, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, 8 fighters, 2 tactical_bombers and 2 transports in 115 Sea Zone, round 2 : 6/15 hits, 7,33 expected hitsCombat Hit Differential Summary :
British regular : -2,33 -
6 hits. Casualties?
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@pejon_88 said in L21 #2 trulpen (X+4) vs Pejon_88 (A) P2V:
6 hits. Casualties?
Max d blir bra.
Skada 3 ac och sänk 3 sub.
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@trulpen Så. Concede.
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@pejon_88 utterly shameful gamesmanship and hypocrisy on trulpens part.
If it hadnt been for one battle in china (that obviously had no impact on these events) then pejon would have been able to do whatever within the bounds of the rules. .
Only the strictest no edit policy (which by necessity the rules must advocate) would support the way things played out. This interpretation of the rules would essentially qualify trulpens edit policy as the strictest I have ever seen on this forum - hence the hypocrisy, since in any other situation or if the situation was reversed trulpen would ask for and complain for the same thing.
Particularly considering how related the ‘bug’ directly relates to the situation.
Basically, trulpen is advertising that he expects others to play with a loose edit policy but they should know that given the opportunity for trulpen to exploit the rules to give himself a game advantage he wont play with the same rule policy.
Absolutely ridiculous and shameful but within the league rules.
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Did I ask to redo Germany? No.
Did UK still have positive odds in the big battle? Yes.
The battle in China didn’t block anything, but rather the fact that the scramble request was issued.
Whatever.
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That you would equate a europe US NCM with redoing the german turn speaks volumes.
Again, there are almost no people on the site that would object to US NCM prior to UK turn (including yourself except in this situation).
The scramble question has nothing to do with anything and simply a lame excuse. The rules allow Pejon to completely rework his UK turn in the case of an illegal move - regardless of the scramble question.
The reason pejon was denied by gamer and company was simply because he made a US NCM edit and by rule all edits have to be approved (including changing his mind about the edit).
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just read through what I could., as a neutral third-party observer.
I see a lot of edits to US units in the Atlantic prior to or during the UK turn, as long as UK combat hasn’t taken place in a way where the outcome of combat might influence decisions. I do it, and I allow it.
For what it’s worth, if I were in that situation, I would allow a redo of the combat move and/or the edit of the US fighter.
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@ksmckay You are free to have your opinion. I won’t bother to discuss this or anything else with you.
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@trulpen sounds good, never had anything to discuss with you.
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@ksmckay Then why do you try so hard? Don’t really like a lot of your harsh, assumpting attidtude.
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@ksmckay is this true?
Because in that case I choose to re-do my UK turn and post without the US fig edit (which was done on the UK turn).
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@pejon_88 yes and no. the ncm edit makes things tricky.
You arent allowed to make an illegal move. the rules allow for you to correct your turn in the event of an illegal move. so you can certainly redo the uk turn completely.
Then its a matter of interpretation regarding how the NCM edit was requested/allowed/processed. I think the question to gamer and company was posed in the most complicated way possible.
Techically you never asked for permission to conduct the US NCM edit in the first place. the chinese turn was the last legally posted turn. So i dont know how the mods can then say that the US NCM was a legal edit but not making it was an illegal edit.
But again i think the way the question was posed was as complicated as possible.
I would have asked the question in this way.
Pejon proposed an illegal set of combat moves for UK6. Before any dice were rolled is he allowed to correct his UK turn to correct for the illegal move? To me the answer to this is a no brainer, yes.
Second question, during the illegal move he made a unrequested US NCM edit. Does simply making this unrequested US NCM edit and posting it make it a legally acceptable edit. that trulpen is allowed to accept but then reject undoing the edit.
- I think thats a trickier question to answer. Edits are always something that have to be agreed on, no way for the rules to allow for legal edits.
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to me the US NCM edit was part of an illegal turn post. I dont see how anyone could make the case that part of the illegal turn post is binding. They happened at the same time and were directly related.
But again since edits are something that have to be completely agreed upon by opponent not sure if the rules can really help you.
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You arent allowed to make an illegal move. the rules allow for you to correct your turn in the event of an illegal move. so you can certainly redo the uk turn completely.
I guess there is actually no stated guidance in the rule for what happens when there is an illegal move. I dont see any argument for anything other than above though. Im sure any moderator would agree.
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@ksmckay Thanks for stepping in and engaging in the matter.
I had hoped that me proving that the game should not allow the move (except that due to the edit, the game still didn’t recognize this) would make the case quite clear. Like I mentioned way back, that was the only supporting evidence I could really rely on since everything else is a gentlemen’s agreement in regards to edit policies between players etc.
With any other player I don’t know well or haven’t played much I would definitely go with what their edit policy is, but since I know trulpen and we have played countless of games tabletop as well as a handful of games here I was simply amazed I wasn’t allowed the edit due to what has been allowed previously. One of my more clear examples were when I allowed him to disregard the CM phase after dice were rolled since his air would be exposed when landing.
I am very disappointed that he would let competitiveness go before fair play and whatever arguments he may have it is quite clear to me that he either consciously or more probable unconsciously let competitiveness overcome fair play.
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@pejon_88 yeah, disputes like this are rare thankfully but unfortunately there is very little that can be done. Mods have no choice to rule in any other way (though I think this particular case was a bit gray but also confusingly presented).
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@ksmckay thanks.
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The grudge
It sounds pretty good, but unfortunately @ksmckay slips to and fro.
What I understand @ksmckay has had a thorn to my side since when I started to play in this league. He has entered quite many of my game threads to spew his opinion about what a low creature I am (although one time he actually supported my case, which I think was big of him even though it was also objectively correct).
The story is that we’ve played one game during L19. Since then he heavily resents me. The game took place when I was new to both the league and A&A in general. He’s a great player and without much trouble got into a winning position.
Since I didn’t have that much experience with the game and also come from the chess scene, I wanted to play on for too long. He complained now and then during the game that I didn’t stand a chance and should give up. However, I still wanted to explore the position and try to exhaust all possibilities.
In chess this is a pretty common situation and it’s very bad manners to complain on an opponent for being slow or not giving up. It’s actually against the rules to do so. As a player you are free to play for as long or slow as you please if you have time left on the clock and have not yet been mated. It’s not even a gentleman’s agreement, but clearly stated in the rules.
Sure, that’s chess, but I think it’s enlightening to clarify the cultural context. I also feel that a similar approach suits very well here with A&A.
@ksmckay accuses me of being ridiculous and shameful, but as a riposte I conclude that he himself showed very bad manners during our first and maybe only game. He also repeatedly ridicule himself when upholding this grudge and time and again spends efforts to shame me in the public space. I do find this behaviour of his rather offensive.
Fair play
I fully understand @Pejon_88’s surprise and disappointment regarding my decision concerning the edit in z113, but I don’t agree with it being neither bad sportmanship nor unfair play.
We have tons of allowed edits between ourselves. It’s not particularly fair to bring out one example to try to prove a point, when there are hundreds of others contradicting that point. I’ve done plenty of similar allowances. In another one of our games (which I miserably lost) I pointed out a poor placement of expensive fleet which would’ve been obliterated by an italian-german double-attack and allowed him to change his position during my Italy.
As I’ve said earlier I don’t have a particular edit policy, like some other players have. I’m usually very liberal and forgiving, but look upon every situation on its own merits. I know several other top ranking players that have more or less the same outlook. One good example is @axis-dominion who is usually very lenient, but in a game the previous season (where he actually gave me an insane handicap of Axis+12 in BM3 along with a lot of highly valuable advice) when I had achieved a winning position, he all of a sudden deviated from his generous approach and denied an obvious edit request for a poorly placed Italian fig before I was about to play Germany.
Franz had not made any impact whatsoever and I think even no dice had been rolled, so it was simply a lesson for me to try to be more careful. Of course I was a bit disappointed and upset, since it was a deviation from what I was used to between us, but I quickly accepted the situation and also realized that my opponent was fully entitled to change his approach.
I certainly didn’t hold a grudge regarding this, but on the contrary continue to appreciate @axis-dominion as a highly just and competent opponent. I have a very slim chance of beating him and my self-confidence would unfortunately not survive playing him at the moment.
About the game
@ksmckay said in L21 #2 trulpen (X+4) vs Pejon_88 (A) P2V:
Pejon proposed an illegal set of combat moves for UK6. Before any dice were rolled is he allowed to correct his UK turn to correct for the illegal move? To me the answer to this is a no brainer, yes.
Of course it’s allowed to correct for an illegal move. It even has to, which also is one of the points.
An edit of US NCM made during the UK-turn leading to an illegal move by UK cannot be adjusted with support of the rules. It can however be changed if the opponent allows it, but I didn’t in this particular case. I know, that’s what you’re so upset about.
I usually allow US-edits during UK. That’s my standard. In this instance it was however a very delicate and game changing situation. I had blundered the german fleet position by neglecting a lot of UK-air in Leningrad. Is there any moral decree why I should allow for my opponent to adjust for a blunder when I won’t be able to adjust for a blunder of my own?
Anyway, what I could tell from the rolled dice (which have not been posted here), the extra fig wouldn’t have mattered much. That’s however not particularly relevant.
I could argue that it’s bad sportsmanship and fairplay to not allow a correction of the german position, but I don’t. Also, I haven’t asked for it and I similarly state it would be absurd to push for it. To paraphrase someone, it speaks volumes to suggest that I equate a german edit during UK with one for US.
@ksmckay said in L21 #2 trulpen (X+4) vs Pejon_88 (A) P2V:
The scramble question has nothing to do with anything and simply a lame excuse.
Of course it is a crucial fact that a scramble request has been issued. That more or less locks the position, except for correcting an illegal move in any way possible.
With your logic you could issue a scramble request and then if the opponent chooses to scramble you could simply retreat the attack and not risk anything. The game doesn’t work that way and you know it.
Now please get off my back.
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