Is Japan a Monster? [Economic Breakdown]

[Jennifer]

DM:

Keep in mind that you cannot build more infantry in a Chinese territory if they have 3 or more infantry there at the completion of their turn.

[DarthMaximus]

Right, but at that point they usually only have 1 territory left (the last one), so it is not that big of a deal to stack them all in one and reinforce with a few Russians (if they can).

I usually only end up leaving “blocking inf” if I have (like you suggest the placement limits) or if I can manuever 1-2 into a spot where no matter what only 1 J inf can attack with air.  Meaning my 2 inf will live another turn.

I don’t like sacrificing them to get slaughtered for a 33% chance at one hit, not when J can bring overwhelming air.  If I can retreat then sometimes the ftrs can’t reach (even from Bur/Fic) and I can get a defensive boost from the retreating Russians or heck, maybe Russia did really well on R2-3 and can spare 1-2 arm for extra defense.  You never know, so I try to preserve the inf as long as possible.

[Funcioneta]

We are reaching a interesting point: the fate of italian fleet; with your moves, seems pretty clear italians cannot survive and it’s difficult they escape to Indian Ocean (but I think they may have at least a small chance of this last). OK, let’s say axis choose not do Polar Express and chooses fighting for Africa in 1st place. With the swarm of trannies Japan starts, do you think that Japan can smash that stack of UK troops in per or trj at time to join with italians or let them escape and then back to mediterranean waters? Can Japan arrive at time to Africa and stop western allies chain of reinforcements with their own stack?. If so, I think the game is won anyway for axis because axis will conquer most of Africa and keep the economic advantage. If western allies shift to Europe, Japan simply shifts to Caucasus

Japan will maybe stop western allied stacks at Africa and western axis can focus on finish soviets. And the clock is against allies because of axis economic advantage.

Mmmm… not sure, your tactic could work DM, but I think it needs perfect timing as allies and no adverse luck. Not a thing I would try in multiplayer, that for sure, and probably even not in FTC one to ones. It can only work in one to one by e-mail, where you can think your moves much time

[Jennifer]

Granted, DM.  I can see a routine situation where there are 4 Russian Infantry and 3 Chinese Infantry in Chinghai.  At this point, Japan can ignore China completely, IMHO.  So what, you don’t have Chinghai.  China’s not getting more infantry, Russia’s got 4 infantry tied up and you have say 4 infantry tied up with a “threat” to Chinghai.  From here you don’t have to attack Chinghai, you can go south to Persia and north to Evenki easily enough.

Or you can plow through.  But honestly, I think you’re ahead just by tying up 21 IPC worth of Allied units defending a 1 IPC territory while only tying up 12 IPC of your own units to keep them pinned there.  Russia will eventually have to pull out or you will eventually take Kazakh/Novosibirsk and prevent a counter attack on Chinghai allowing you to kill the defenders there when it’s most advantageous to you.

---

In regards to the Italian fleet, I have a split decision on what to do.

We all know that the allies will be able to sink the fleet eventually.  There’s next to nothing you can do to stop it. (You could move the Japanese fleet in to protect it, but then you open yourself up to America in the Pacific.)

So what should you do with it?

1)  Leave it in the med and hope to inflict significant damage on the allies when they attack? (Could happen and is realistic to hope it will.  With minor augmenting you could have 2 cruisers, destroyer, battleships, carrier, 2 fighters there, that’s a strong defensive punch.)

2)  Escape and use it to augment the Japanese fleet against the Americans? (Again +1 Battleship +2 Cruisers and leave the transport in the med since it has no defense value) It could help turn the tide in Japan’s favor by giving them the defensive punch needed to withstand an American attack and allowing them to press forward and force America back.

[Stoob]

Yes, that’s right, real results from a real game, documenting the Japanese Godzilla Monster it can become.

You can agree or disagree with this particular strategy on this particular game (KIF) but a group of very strong players (who understand and apply concepts of deadzone management, build planning, consolidation of forces, etc) has played 41+Nos and seen Allies lose EVERY TIME with multiple different stratgies: KJF, Balanced, KIF, KGF/KIF opportunistic, KGF north, KGF south.

But here are some real results from a real game, in detail for your viewing pleasure!  Up with karma people, big ups!!??   :-D :-)  I got some negatives for calling suckas out (ps they deserved it though…I swear)!  You’re welcome, much love people!   :lol:

2/27/2009	1941 Setup with Tech and Nos				General Strategy: Kill Italy First			
	Ger	Russia	Japan	UK	Italy	USA		

1	45	31	41	42	15	48		
2	53	33	53	32	23	48		
3	43	32	59	29	24	44		
4	48	27	62	30	24	43		
5	45	38	64	38	21	44		
6	33	28	67	29	23	45		
7	39	23	72	43	11	45		
8	44	19	75	35	9	57		
9	51	17	77	42	0	58		
10	50	9	91	39	0	53		
11	48	0	100+	Game Conceeded				

Major Events
1 Germany gets Rockets + takes 3 Rus Territories, UK takes Norway, Japan sinks all US fleet but Carrier and Destroyer
2 Italy take Egypt, Japan take Australia, Russian counterattack, UK takes Finland
3 US lands Morocco, Japan take India
4 Italy takes back Morocco, Italy loses fleet to USA, Japan starts landings in Northern Russia
5 US retakes Morocco, UK lands token to take France, Japan reinforces India + builds IC
6 Russia advances into Persia + scares Japan out of India, US eliminates Italian forces in Africa, Africa saved
7 UK lands token force taking France, Italy retakes France strongly, Japan retakes India as Russia withdraws to Caucus
8 Russia takes Romania/Bulg, UK takes France, UK takes Balkans/Italy with 12 Trans, Germany paratroops Nor/Fin
9 Germany retakes France, UK retakes Nor/Finland, Baltic, Karelia via sea, Japan presses Moscow
10 Russia abandons Moscow in face of overwhelming odds, heads west to Germany, Germany turtles, USA holds Italy
11 Germany takes Italy and France, Japan defeats Russia in Belorus, Japan sends 5 fighters to Germany, Allies Conceed

[Jennifer]

Which is exactly why I say you cannot just ignore Japan and hope to win the game.

Anyway, 100+ for Japan is pretty awesome.  90+ is usually where they end at in games that are conceded before total global dominion is achieved in my experience.

[Jennifer]

@Stoob:

Dear Jennifer:

…

Whatever.

Wow, what the stupidest reply I have ever read….

[Jennifer]

@Stoob:

You’re welcome for my detailed, factual informative post about our game.

Obviously you didn’t read what I wrote.

Go back, re-read what I typed and then look at your responses.  Maybe you will see why I think you are coming off very silly.

[Unknown Soldier]

Stoob, good to see some numbers. My experience is similar to yours, though the Allies have been getting better and better at KIF lately in my games. I haven’t seen Japan break 100 yet, but they seem to always have 80+ when the Axis wins.

+1 Karma granted.  :-D

[Jennifer]

Okay, I guess you are the densest person on the planet…I agreed with you, and you went off on some whacky crusade of hatred.

Whatever.

PS:  I don’t give out negative karma.  I’d wager you probably got it from someone in the community who is rolling in laughter because you’re displaying hatred and bigotry against someone who agreed with you!

[Pvt.Patterson]

Please… back to the real suff here. Its all about the game!!! :-D
Japan is huge…
Russia has it’s hand full,
The US cant do to much for the first 2 rounds,
The UK losses its fleet in G1
The I-ties can go bannana’s if left alone,
and the china men really are just cannon fodder for J1.

Thats it.

Now please dont go on and on unless you two are flirting!!!
:-o :-o :-D :-o :-D :-o :-P :-o :-) :roll:
Now lets get back to how to hurt a moster.

Yah, a good layered desfense of moscow is needed. Suround it in infantry and do send a Inf or two towards japan each turn after R2 It can be used as ether cannon foder agaist japan or a piggy bank of troop interest if germany gets close to nocking on your door.

:evil:

Peace!!!  Love!!!

[DarthMaximus]

@Funcioneta:

We are reaching a interesting point: the fate of italian fleet; with your moves, seems pretty clear italians cannot survive and it’s difficult they escape to Indian Ocean (but I think they may have at least a small chance of this last). OK, let’s say axis choose not do Polar Express and chooses fighting for Africa in 1st place. With the swarm of trannies Japan starts, do you think that Japan can smash that stack of UK troops in per or trj at time to join with italians or let them escape and then back to mediterranean waters? Can Japan arrive at time to Africa and stop western allies chain of reinforcements with their own stack?. If so, I think the game is won anyway for axis because axis will conquer most of Africa and keep the economic advantage. If western allies shift to Europe, Japan simply shifts to Caucasus

Yes, the Ita fleet is very important in a KG(I)F.  IMO, It is very similar to Classic or Revised b/c in both those editions you’d want to kill the Ger Med fleet by rd 4.  After that you start to have touble b/c of what you suggest with Japan’s potential moves.

But if you can kill it and essentially limit the early Axis African income you are never that far off of economic parity come mid game.  The problem arises when you not only have a Japan at 60, Ita at 20, and Ger at 45+.

Right now I think there is very little the Allies can do to stop Japan from getting to 60 ipc.  Even a US Pac build up takes time and will likely not prevent Aus from falling in rd 2 and certainly won’t help China or Northern Russia from falling.  So what I am doing is conceding that Japan will get to be huge but trying to limit its effectiveness by trying to cripple Ita and/or Ger.  I can fight Ger/Ita in Europe and Afr a heck of a lot easier than Japan in the Pac or in Asia (at least in the early rds 1-4).  Also until the US can move on the Islands there is no IPC gain for the Allies.  You can’t really gain a good number of ipc until you move on the bigger islands and most of those are UKs.  So if the Axis do gain an IPC adv early it becomes that much harder to even it out for the Allies since you’re not in any real position to fight over some of the easier IPC to get (Afr or Eastern Europe territories).

I will say I do think there are times the US or Allies could/should go after Japan, but I don’t think it is necessary to immediately throw 40 ipc worth into the Pac in Rd 1.

@Funcioneta:

Japan will maybe stop western allied stacks at Africa and western axis can focus on finish soviets. And the clock is against allies because of axis economic advantage.

This is a possibility.  But it depends on where Japan puts its ICs.  If they put 2 up near Man then it is not as effective, but 1 in Bur/Fic and Ind (or EI + Ind) can bring a lot of immediate force to the Middle East and Afr.

I think an important thing for Japan is to claim/hold Per.  If you can block the Allies here, then it becomes easier for you to defend (inf, arm, ftrs etc.) and harder to the Allies to push you out.

@Cmdr:

Granted, DM.  I can see a routine situation where there are 4 Russian Infantry and 3 Chinese Infantry in Chinghai.  At this point, Japan can ignore China completely, IMHO.  So what, you don’t have Chinghai.  China’s not getting more infantry, Russia’s got 4 infantry tied up and you have say 4 infantry tied up with a “threat” to Chinghai.  From here you don’t have to attack Chinghai, you can go south to Persia and north to Evenki easily enough.

Or you can plow through.  But honestly, I think you’re ahead just by tying up 21 IPC worth of Allied units defending a 1 IPC territory while only tying up 12 IPC of your own units to keep them pinned there.  Russia will eventually have to pull out or you will eventually take Kazakh/Novosibirsk and prevent a counter attack on Chinghai allowing you to kill the defenders there when it’s most advantageous to you.

Yeah you can do either, but the 1-2 turn delay may be all the Allies need before they retreat.  Every turn delay is likely 7-8 more inf for Russia (earning 21-24).  It also depends on how much Japan has already in the China ter.  It is not easy to reverse those units and go north or south.  That is major back tracking.  If they don’t back up with anything China could suicide 4 inf vs. 3-4 inf, then Russia follows up with say 3-4 inf, 1 arm, and now Japan could have a real annoyance on their hands.  Obviously depends on the game, but the real Allied goal is to just buy time (assuming you’ve reclaimed or are in the process of reclaiming Afr).  In a “prefect scenerio” each turn delay means 12-16 more (6-8 uk, 6-8 us) Allied troops to Kar, Bst, or Pol.

[Jennifer]

Yea, but with more and more English players going heavy through North Africa (to stop the Italian NOs and build up in Persia) you almost have to divert away from Chinghai anyway.  Why take it and leave your stacks open to Russian armor from Moscow when you can leave half a dozen units in Ningxia/Sikang (not half a dozen each, half a dozen total) and tie up half a dozen allied infantry while you build up in India?

Then again, I like the FIC/Burma/Indian complex.  Starting to call it the Burmese Road to Moscow. heh.