And how exactly will those Subs attack the American Subs? Each Sub is in a different Sea Zone, Japan will need a Destroyer for every Sub they wish to attack. If Japan does a Sub build, America will simply move their Sub Fleet into Japan’s Sea Zone, which will eliminate Japan’s ability to produce units from it.
Thats the easy part.
Japan since on J1 they own the Pacific get to set up that picket line first because they enjoy space , while US player is stuck at his back line.
Once the American player gets his subs near enough, the Japanese subs hit at 2 and US defends at one,
What does not get wiped out is dinner for the larger japanese fleet.
So to recap 1941 :
1)Japan cleans the pacific of allied ships except the carrier group in corner of map builds a factory
2)US player builds probably a bunch of subs off west coast
3)Japan on its J2 turn grabs rest of Asia Islands and India. They build mostly subs and 1 DD, fleet moved to Midway and Midway is taken
US spreads out one sub since they are too weak to attack fleet, but Japan can still shuck its builds to get to the fleet
US cant build any more fleet because the japanese will wipe it out, so they must recall all these picket subs to protect the builds
Japan sends its subs and its fleet to Wake Island and pickets Hawaii with its destroyer. Now the US fleet if it chooses to move one space closer than SZ 55 will be attacked by subs at 2 and the entire japanese fleet.
Im sure US has counters but japan with more pieces and more space will always have more counters.
@Imperious:
And how exactly will those Subs attack the American Subs? Each Sub is in a different Sea Zone, Japan will need a Destroyer for every Sub they wish to attack. If Japan does a Sub build, America will simply move their Sub Fleet into Japan’s Sea Zone, which will eliminate Japan’s ability to produce units from it.
Thats the easy part.
Japan since on J1 they own the Pacific get to set up that picket line first because they enjoy space , while US player is stuck at his back line.
Once the American player gets his subs near enough, the Japanese subs hit at 2 and US defends at one,
What does not get wiped out is dinner for the larger japanese fleet.
So to recap 1941 :
1)Japan cleans the pacific of allied ships except the carrier group in corner of map builds a factory
2)US player builds probably a bunch of subs off west coast
3)Japan on its J2 turn grabs rest of Asia Islands and India. They build mostly subs and 1 DD, fleet moved to Midway and Midway is taken
So exactly how are you getting your fleet to Midway?
If you left all of the US fleet completely alone, then the US has 3 dd’s, 1 bb, 1 cv, 4 fig, 2 bmb, AND 6 subs to attack your 1 dd, 2 cv’s, 4 fig, 1 ca, and 1 bb at Midway. As America, I will attack you like that every game. I mean, if your going to let me build a navy in the Pacific, why shouldn’t I?
Killing America’s navy is more important than killing a few Russian infantry which are stopping you from building your turn 1 Manchurian IC. If you must have a turn 1 IC, and Russia stacked Buryatia, then build it in Fic instead.
In the -41 scenario the best way to kill the Jap fleet is either play against a n00b, or get blessed by the dice gods :-P
@Imperious:
And how exactly will those Subs attack the American Subs? Each Sub is in a different Sea Zone, Japan will need a Destroyer for every Sub they wish to attack. If Japan does a Sub build, America will simply move their Sub Fleet into Japan’s Sea Zone, which will eliminate Japan’s ability to produce units from it.
Thats the easy part.
Japan since on J1 they own the Pacific get to set up that picket line first because they enjoy space , while US player is stuck at his back line.
Once the American player gets his subs near enough, the Japanese subs hit at 2 and US defends at one,
May be talking about hitting the subs when they are together here, in 64, 59, or 58.
Plan A and B both do this:
A1build: 6 Subs
A1move: Move fleet to WUS as usual, land 2 Fighters and 2 Bombers in Alaska, move Infantry to Canada, have British Infantry move to Alaska.Plan A does this
A2build: 6 Subs, 1 Bomber
A2move: Consolidate fleet in either Sea Zone 64, 59, or 58, where-ever its least threatened.
If the subs moved to one of those three zones with surface ships they’d be vulnerable to Japanese attack. If they went straight from 56 out to the other zones without consolidating that would keep the subs safer, but would leave a surface ship consolidation more vulnerable.
@Imperious:
Once the American player gets his subs near enough, the Japanese subs hit at 2 and US defends at one,
What does not get wiped out is dinner for the larger japanese fleet.
Once again, how do those Japanese Subs attack the American Subs without a Destroyer present? If no Destroyers are present, then the American Sub immediately submerges, granting it immunity to all attacks, including other Subs. If you did your plan, you would sink one American Sub, and the other 5 move to the Japanese Sea zone and kill everything there with air support, then rinse and repeat for the remainder of the game. If you move your Subs back, they will accomplish little, seeing as THEY will be the ones on Defense, and they will get about one round of firing before the US airforce wipes out all the surface vessels.
This goes to show that not all people will provide the correct counter to this strategy, which is good.
Plan A does this
A2build: 6 Subs, 1 Bomber
A2move: Consolidate fleet in either Sea Zone 64, 59, or 58, where-ever its least threatened.If the subs moved to one of those three zones with surface ships they’d be vulnerable to Japanese attack. If they went straight from 56 out to the other zones without consolidating that would keep the subs safer, but would leave a surface ship consolidation more vulnerable.
The consolidation of Subs is a trap. If Japan brings a Destroyer, the US Subs get used as fodder and the Japanese force gets decimated. If Japan does not bring a Destroyer, the US Surface fleet is lost, but the US Sub fleet survives to reach the Japanese Sea Zone, whereupon it is supported by the intact US Air force.
You don’t have to kill the Jap fleet, merely force them to spend money in the pacific and get some IPCs for the UK. If on turn 1 you build a trannie, on turn 2 you can move it to take Caroline Islands giving the UK 5 IPCs if the japs do not take it back, not that it is always a good idea to do so. SZ 46 is the best place to rally your US fleet in my opinion as it allows you to strike out at the money islands, and is 3 zones away from japan while 2 from US. Also, keep in mind that your ACs and bombers can help to defend your fleet as well as threaten Japan’s transports. As far as the money difference if your putting everything from the US into the pacific you should be cashing in at 48 IPCs a round, that’s alot of money for Japan to match and build tanks to push on moscow/etc.
how do those Japanese Subs attack the American Subs without a Destroyer present?
subs cant attack subs w/o a DD?
I thought that was just for surface ships and planes attacking subs with no DD.
@Imperious:
how do those Japanese Subs attack the American Subs without a Destroyer present?
subs cant attack subs w/o a DD?
I thought that was just for surface ships and planes attacking subs with no DD.
only destroyers can spot subs. nothing else. hence, subs can’t attack subs UNLESS the defender allows you to attack with your 2’s against his 1’s, which I guess won’t happen that often :)
u dont need to kill jap fleet, you just need to force him to move his fleet back to japan seazone ( to protect his new builds/ protect his main fleet) , then u can retake saome of the islands.
its all about controlling the center in pazifc. ( carolines, wake, philippines, okinawa).
moreover. if you put all your effort on killing jap fleet, you win the war at sea, but loose it on land. so u got to take away jap money in pazifk and give the brits some ( SOL 5 ipc, AUS 7 ipc ( if brits control med). harder targets are borneo, sumatra. (also good for JAP NO)
also with large fleets since a lot of subs are prolly involed, youll get trading battles to prevent attacking, since however attacks is at an advantage (since both sides prolly have some bombers)
so u put an DD between the fleets. if he clears it with a sub + planes, he isnt preventing your movement , so he needs to send an DD too.
I agree with all the people that have said you don’t need to kill the Japanese fleet just force it back to Sz 62.
I prefer AC + ftrs b/c you can threaten more sea zones. Depending on where the J ACs and ftrs end up on J1, I may wait until US 2 to buy tons of ships so I’d go more air on US 1 (ftrs for a later AC) and a few inf so I can always shuck at least 2 inf to support the UK in the Atlantic.
If Sz 56 is fairly safe, you can buy 1 ac + 3 dds and have: 4 dds, 2 ac, 4 ftrs all in Sz 56 at the end of US 1. Japan needs an awful lot of ftrs in range to even threaten that and they likely won’t since most gear up for potential strikes on Ind or Aus as early as rd 2. 4 dds, 2 ac, 4 ftrs is essentially even with a 9-10 ftr attack, so again you are pretty safe in most cases.
After that, in Rd 2 is when I drop some subs and more dds for fodder. You’ll probably have ~48 to spend so that is 8 subs, 6 dds, or 4 subs 3 dds. You might need one more turn (rd 3) of surface ships (subs + dds, probaly good to get a trn now), before you can go back to AC + air. You can probably go to Sol by US 4 and from here you just need to time your later moves right and wait for the right opportunity. By rd 6 or so Japan should be pretty well confined to the Northern seazones and out of range of anything at Sol or EI, except for air only but 4-5 ACs and 8-10 ftrs + a few DDs is plenty for air only defense.
It does take patience and time so you need to be on your game with Rus and UK b/c it is pretty much just those two against a pretty strong Germany/Ita. You won’t see the effects of the US build up until after rd 6 or so.
and then hopefully that 30 IPC swing ( borneo / sumatra / australia /JAP NO / UK NO) isnt late :D
i like, both in 1941, but especially in 1942(japan is weaker then) to fortify australia
might sound crazy at first, but think: supported with atleast 2 fighters and bombers together with 3 UK inf and canon and AA gun…
it’ll hold a little while
and, from australia, you can cover with your bombers a pretty large territory
still sound so stupid?
depends on J1 really. but its not a big deal if japan has it a few rounds before u take it back since its only 2 ipc .u cant really prevent japan from taking india (the NO). lateron carolines is a better bomber base
So exactly how are you getting your fleet to Midway?
If you left all of the US fleet completely alone, then the US has 3 dd’s, 1 bb, 1 cv, 4 fig, 2 bmb, AND 6 subs to attack your 1 dd, 2 cv’s, 4 fig, 1 ca, and 1 bb at Midway. As America, I will attack you like that every game. I mean, if your going to let me build a navy in the Pacific, why shouldn’t I?
Killing America’s navy is more important than killing a few Russian infantry which are stopping you from building your turn 1 Manchurian IC. If you must have a turn 1 IC, and Russia stacked Buryatia, then build it in Fic instead.
I didn’t leave anything alone except the carrier group in the corner of the map and possibly the US BB. Everything else is gone. Where did you get the idea that i did?
The factory is placed in the event that the Soviets pile up infantry in Buryatia, which is destroyed instead of that Hawaii BB
If the Soviets leave Buryatia with 1 -2 Infantry, then i take out the US BB as well leaving:
Japan with 1 BB, 3 CV, fighters, 1 DD vs. 1 CV, fighters, 1 DD, possible bombers.
IPC would be for J2 is 30-32 and USA is 38. The difference in IPC will not overcome the japanese material advantage
The japanese spacial advantage would not overcome. After J2 Japan gets about 5 or 6 more IPC which makes it an equal fight.
My fleet would be in one spot at Midway and will strike out at your builds on west coast because your subs wont block my fleet from moving and while you set up a picket fence to avoid losing subs, i strike out your fleet leaving you with subs. But i also buy subs and 1 destroyer and link up with main body.
you dont play NO,s? i think u should give it a try
@Imperious:
how do those Japanese Subs attack the American Subs without a Destroyer present?
subs cant attack subs w/o a DD?
If the opposing Subs submerge and you don’t have a DD, they can’t be attacked, period. If I recall correctly, the number of Subs that got sunk by other Subs during WWII could be counted on a single hand, anyways.
Also, I’m beginning to suspect that it is NOs that make Japan so UBER. Without it, they don’t have such deep pockets, and while US is reduced as well, it means Japan takes longer to build up.
The NOs do make Japan very killer. Its what forces the USA to seriously consider the consequences of leaving Japan to itself in the Pacific. They need to start island hopping to get the Japanese to protect its income, or at least some of it.
@Imperious:
So exactly how are you getting your fleet to Midway?
If you left all of the US fleet completely alone, then the US has 3 dd’s, 1 bb, 1 cv, 4 fig, 2 bmb, AND 6 subs to attack your 1 dd, 2 cv’s, 4 fig, 1 ca, and 1 bb at Midway. As America, I will attack you like that every game. I mean, if your going to let me build a navy in the Pacific, why shouldn’t I?
Killing America’s navy is more important than killing a few Russian infantry which are stopping you from building your turn 1 Manchurian IC. If you must have a turn 1 IC, and Russia stacked Buryatia, then build it in Fic instead.
I didn’t leave anything alone except the carrier group in the corner of the map and possibly the US BB. Everything else is gone. Where did you get the idea that i did?
Because you said that you are consolidating your ENTIRE fleet at Midway on J2, that means that on J1, you are sending NO naval units to the naval battle for the Philippines, and you are not hitting the British dd+tr in sz35.
The factory is placed in the event that the Soviets pile up infantry in Buryatia, which is destroyed instead of that Hawaii BB
If the Soviets leave Buryatia with 1 -2 Infantry, then i take out the US BB as well leaving:
Japan with 1 BB, 3 CV, fighters, 1 DD vs. 1 CV, fighters, 1 DD, possible bombers.
IPC would be for J2 is 30-32 and USA is 38. The difference in IPC will not overcome the japanese material advantage
The japanese spacial advantage would not overcome. After J2 Japan gets about 5 or 6 more IPC which makes it an equal fight.
My fleet would be in one spot at Midway and will strike out at your builds on west coast because your subs wont block my fleet from moving and while you set up a picket fence to avoid losing subs, i strike out your fleet leaving you with subs. But i also buy subs and 1 destroyer and link up with main body.
Because you said that you are consolidating your ENTIRE fleet at Midway on J2, that means that on J1, you are sending NO naval units to the naval battle for the Philippines, and you are not hitting the British dd+tr in sz35.
I said that but for turn J2 not J1.
The Soviet 7 inf stack = 21 IPCs, and seven dice for 2 if attacked in J1. The US BB = 20 IPCs and 1 die for 4. It’s a no-brainer to me, I want that Soviet pile attacked if I’m the allies. The BB is infinitely more useful when it’s got other ships with it instead of stranded alone in sz 53. Also, for 1 IPC more the Soviets are going to get a shot at killing MANY more Japanese units, and if he brings more than 3 ground units, you’re doing much too well in other places to worry about the lack of value of the units you kill compared to the ones the BB might (or might not) kill.
Not only that, it’s leaving even more American or British units alive because every land and air unit fighting for that 1 IPC territory on turn 1 isn’t going at a 2 or 7 IPC Phillipines, Hawaii which is the only real way to complete a first turn 3 NO grab for JP, 4 IPC Borneo, 4 IPC EI, Kwangtung/New Guinea which completes the 2nd NO. 2 IPC burma, SZ 35 which is very valuable to the Brits. AFAIC, the 7 inf Red stack is about the LEAST of JP’s worries on turn 1. America and Britain need to be taxed or you’ll find yourself monetarily dominated VERY quickly in the Pacific.
