Ignore Germany Strategy

[Funcioneta]

@atarihuana:

KGF doesnt ignore Japan :P

Sure? KGF utterly ignores Japan in the 3-4 first rounds. Enough for lose the game for allies

[bugoo]

Actually i think best way to play this would be the following.

Russia retreats ALL Siberian units back toward russia then into china, as well as 2 inf on turn 1.

Russia sends 2-4 inf into Persia, purchases 4 arm, 1 fig, placing armor in caucus and fig in Moscow.

IF that would be enough to hold India, UK does following, also depends on German moves as well.

UK buys 2 bombers and an IC for in India, lands 2 figs on Gibraltar with 2 inf as well (yes trannie is gonna die).  If possible strafe/take burma (you want to kill as many land units as possible).

US gears up to cover UK landings in africa, or prepares to do so itself as well as pressure japan and go after south pacific.  Also, us lands 2 figs in australia and moves the AC to z46.  This allows the US to drop 3 planes (depending on japan) on india turn 2 as well.  Make sure the US buys atleast 3 subs and 1 trannie.

This will allow you to destroy italy’s fleet, or start bombing Germany to aid Russia, and it allows you to break off if the Russian forces would not be enough to hold India, or allows Russia to follow a standard strategy against Germany -4 inf which can come back in 1 round.  Also, the Russian armor can come back very quickly if needed, or can push against Italy in Africa.  The key here is you have options, UK doesn’t have to go for it and Russia isn’t hurting that badly.  The other big thing to keep in mind is japan has no ‘second wave’ so to speak to hit India with in most openings.

Honestly though, if the UK wants to help in Asia, kick some German/Italian ass so the Russians can push back in china.

[wodan46]

@bugoo:

Actually i think best way to play this would be the following.

Russia retreats ALL Siberian units back toward russia then into china, as well as 2 inf on turn 1.

Russia sends 2-4 inf into Persia, purchases 4 arm, 1 fig, placing armor in caucus and fig in Moscow.

IF that would be enough to hold India, UK does following, also depends on German moves as well.

UK buys 2 bombers and an IC for in India, lands 2 figs on Gibraltar with 2 inf as well (yes trannie is gonna die).  If possible strafe/take burma (you want to kill as many land units as possible).

US gears up to cover UK landings in africa, or prepares to do so itself as well as pressure japan and go after south pacific.  Also, us lands 2 figs in australia and moves the AC to z46.  This allows the US to drop 3 planes (depending on japan) on india turn 2 as well.  Make sure the US buys atleast 3 subs and 1 trannie.

This will allow you to destroy italy’s fleet, or start bombing Germany to aid Russia, and it allows you to break off if the Russian forces would not be enough to hold India, or allows Russia to follow a standard strategy against Germany -4 inf which can come back in 1 round.  Also, the Russian armor can come back very quickly if needed, or can push against Italy in Africa.  The key here is you have options, UK doesn’t have to go for it and Russia isn’t hurting that badly.  The other big thing to keep in mind is japan has no ‘second wave’ so to speak to hit India with in most openings.

Honestly though, if the UK wants to help in Asia, kick some German/Italian a** so the Russians can push back in china.

Workable, I suppose.  However, the presence of 7 Russian Infantry in Buryatia with a Bomber supporting means Japan has to choose between losing Manchuria, or ignoring the American fleet, both of which are very bad things.

[gebs99]

I dont like any stat that focuses on ignoring any nation because i like to play with a certain degree of “realism” no rusian player will agree to be wiped out just for the sake of the other countries. However, i liked the bomber idea though. I was thinking perhsps i could buy that bomber en R1, regroup East near manchuria making japan think im fleeing.  Then un R2 attack with all soldiers + bomber. Im not seeing the gameboard right now there could be space limitations but its just an idea.

[wodan46]

Overall Plan currently:

R1: Build 1 Infantry, 3 Tanks, 1 Bomber, get 4 Infantry in Persia, 7 in Buryatia, and 1 in Soviet Far East
B1: Build 1 IC in India, 2 Bombers, send Fighters to Northwest Africa or Gibraltar
A1: ??? (emphasis on either naval, transports, or bombers, dependent on whether or not Japan hits their fleet or Buryatia)

[atarihuana]

the big problem is that russia has no option what so ever going on offensive in far east. japan can ignore Bury, attack SUI with 6 men ,still kill BB , do its normal attacks ,buy 2 tran… and bring around 10 inf 2 art arm + planes + shore shots if Russia moves in Manchuria… or he can attack J1 right away. its way better move thoose inf west and seed china…

[tloger]

I wouldn’t rule out any of these strategies, just like any “safe” strat, there is still the luck of the dice, and in my 14 years of playing AA I have seen some insane dice rolling that really makes the game fun and interesting.  If anything I welcome strats like these, and sometimes I try them myself in games just to mix things up and keep things fresh.  Some of these outlandish strategies will make your opponent think “What the H is going on?”  That in itself will create a fun and interesting game.

[wodan46]

@atarihuana:

the big problem is that russia has no option what so ever going on offensive in far east. japan can ignore Bury, attack SUI with 6 men ,still kill BB , do its normal attacks ,buy 2 tran… and bring around 10 inf 2 art arm + planes + shore shots if Russia moves in Manchuria… or he can attack J1 right away. its way better move thoose inf west and seed china…

Japan has about 20 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and a Tank within transporting range.  10 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 1 Armor represents over 50% of their ground forces and all non-Infantry ground forces.  It means that they have 10 Infantry and a limited portion of their Airforce to deal with China, Kwantung, Burma, India, East Indies, Borneo, and the Philipines.

Japan can easily defend against any given threat, but it can’t defend against all of them.  Between the American Fleet, an uncapturable British IC, and a large group of Russian forces, all coming from different directions, they are in trouble.

[Nickwins89]

But If I was Russia, I would want to keep my forces on the German Front the strongest. I would be very hesitant to send a huge handful of troops out west to face Japan.

If I was Germany, and I saw the massive forces being sent towards Japan, I would be working my utmost with Italy to disrupt British operations whilst still pushing against the Russian Front.

Wouldn’t it be best to build a UK IC on India, so it would be closer to the Action in the Japanese theater of war? Granted the IC in SA would allow them to keep battling against the Italian hordes sent from Rome, but I think India would be a bit closer to the action, and thusly send troops quicker into the action.

[wodan46]

@Nickwins89:

But If I was Russia, I would want to keep my forces on the German Front the strongest. I would be very hesitant to send a huge handful of troops out west to face Japan.

Its only 4 Infantry, plus the guys already in Siberia, plus a Bomber which Germany would assume was meant for it.

@Nickwins89:

If I was Germany, and I saw the massive forces being sent towards Japan, I would be working my utmost with Italy to disrupt British operations whilst still pushing against the Russian Front.

How?  Britain will sink anything you build with their air force unless you build so much in the way of sea units that not even a weakened Russia has problems fighting you.

If Germany divides their forces between Britain and Russia like that, even as all 3 Allies target Japan, Japan will fall long before either Britain or Russia does.

@Nickwins89:

Wouldn’t it be best to build a UK IC on India, so it would be closer to the Action in the Japanese theater of war?

Did you not read any of my posts, or did you fail to miss the part where the entire reason any non-Siberian Russian forces are being moved East is to guard India from a J2 capture so that an IC can get going?

[Grenadier]

I can see the merits of this strategy and how it will seriously hamper japanese expansion. I also appreciate that an unsuspecting japanese player will have to make some difficult decisions as a result of this strategy. That alone is a very powerful effect.

What remains to be seen is if japan would be dead g6 as you said. If the japanese player ‘turtles’ as germany usually does it would become costly and difficult to invade them. If for some reason japan is only contained and not destroyed you’ll have a very large and dangerous germany to worry about.

I like your idea, its novel, but I’m not convinced that this would be as simple as advertised. The key, as stated already, is to create options for the allies to go either way. If Germany is entirely ignored you lose said options.

Nonetheless its an interesting idea.

[wodan46]

@Grenadier:

I can see the merits of this strategy and how it will seriously hamper japanese expansion. I also appreciate that an unsuspecting japanese player will have to make some difficult decisions as a result of this strategy. That alone is a very powerful effect.

Most of my exotic strategies are based around the opponent not being sure of what’s best.  Sure, if they know exactly what you are going to do, and what permutations you are going to do, they have a better chance, but there is no assurance of that.

Though the key to any strategy is adaptability.  Every strategy has a counter, and if the opponent knows what your strategy is and you can’t change it, you are screwed.  Hence, you keep your options open.  If Japan is contained but not killed, Britain could simply start massing a fleet, which they can afford thanks to having their eastern assets liberated.  Or if Russia is still alive, you could just make a run for the VC condition with a quick capture of Western Europe and East Poland.

@Grenadier:

What remains to be seen is if japan would be dead g6 as you said. If the japanese player ‘turtles’ as germany usually does it would become costly and difficult to invade them. If for some reason japan is only contained and not destroyed you’ll have a very large and dangerous germany to worry about.

The key to stopping that is SBR.  If Japan lacks territories outside their capital, SBRs will near completely disable their production.

If Japan turtles early enough, use the UK air force to bombard Germany’s IC while the US bombards the Russian ones, which have probably been captured, then simply attack the Axis where-ever they are weak.  You should have 10 VCs assuming that Japan is not captured but Russia has been lost.  All you need to do is grab 2-5 to win.  Japan can be held in check by a fleet of 3 or 4 Bombers reducing its production to nothing.

@Grenadier:

I like your idea, its novel, but I’m not convinced that this would be as simple as advertised. The key, as stated already, is to create options for the allies to go either way. If Germany is entirely ignored you lose said options.

Hence, I’ve abandoned the more extreme version, instead, Russia sends 4 of its western infantry, 8 of its siberian infantry, and a R1 bomber to help the east, nothing more.

Once again, Bombers are vital to this strategy, both for their ability to prevent Germany from building a fleet, eliminating the Italian and Japanese fleets, SBRing Japan to the point that it can only make 2 Infantry every other turn as well as participating in the final capture, and SBRing Germany and Italy to reduce their sizeable incomes.

New Builds:
[R1: 3 Tank, 1 Infantry, 1 Bomber][R2: 4 Tanks, 3 Infantry][R3+: Tanks/Infantry]
[B1: 2 Bombers, 1 IC][B2: 1 Bomber, 1 Carrier, 2 Transports/Tanks/Infantry][B3+: 2 Bombers, 3 Tanks/Infantry]
[A1: 1 Carrier, 2 Transports, 2 Tanks][A2: 4 Bombers][A3+: 4ish Bombers]
Adapt builds as needed, of course.  On A4, Japan gets nailed by 4 SBRs, on A5, that goes up to 7 or 8, assuming that you don’t simply capture it A5.

Japan should get about 140 IPCs over the first 4 turns+their starting money.  That’s probably enough to convince them that they can actually fight back, not turtle.  If they turtle, they will end up with even less money and die anyways.

[Enigmatic_Decay]

WOW!
While I usually disagree with your stratagies Wodan, I appreciate them as they keep me thinking, creating new strats. and help me develop precious different ideas.

Cheers,

Enigmatic_Decay

[Nickwins89]

Wodan, I was mostly confused by your original strategy, in which you said Russia would basically sacrifice itself in order to Destroy Japanese colonial ambitions. With more moderate amounts of forces being sent East, I can agree with it more. I just didn’t like the idea of having an ally give up their territories so they could ship them off East.

You swayed me at least a bit towards your idea of the Japanese gamble. I do enjoy thinking of strategies to do, but I always end up questioning whether they could be used in an actual game.

[atarihuana]

@Funcioneta:

@atarihuana:

KGF doesnt ignore Japan :P

Sure? KGF utterly ignores Japan in the 3-4 first rounds. Enough for lose the game for allies

i dont think this  game is decided in 4 rounds, unless u play really bad.  there is no kings-way. you can fight the pacific or can go full throttle KGF. both are viable options.

[Funcioneta]

Trying KGF is playing really bad. It concedes economic advantage to axis from round 2, 3 as much, menaces facing a Polar Express and cannot crush a well played western axis

Pacific must be fought if allies want the marginal chance of winning they have in 1941 against a well played axis. Economics are simple, axis will have them pretty soon, and they have starting military advantage and positional advantage with one enemy power killed in 1st round and a 2nd enemy power (USSR) bottled between axis power, and a 3rd power (UK) that loses many of her territories in the first rounds. I still cannot find a way of wining with allies that not involve massive luck for allies or bad axis playing, and this way cannot be KGF. This way only can be bidding for allies or modding China in some way

[atarihuana]

i  disagree :D

[U-505]

@atarihuana:

i  disagree :D

I agree with you that I disagree.  :-D

I think against a good Allied player, the Axis are at a disadvantage. the Allies can easily focus on the Atlantic with only a minimal investment, if any, in the Pacific.

[LuckyDay]

@wodan46:

Most of my exotic strategies are based around the opponent not being sure of what’s best.  Sure, if they know exactly what you are going to do, and what permutations you are going to do, they have a better chance, but there is no assurance of that.

Though the key to any strategy is adaptability.  Every strategy has a counter, and if the opponent knows what your strategy is and you can’t change it, you are screwed.  Hence, you keep your options open.  If Japan is contained but not killed, Britain could simply start massing a fleet, which they can afford thanks to having their eastern assets liberated.  Or if Russia is still alive, you could just make a run for the VC condition with a quick capture of Western Europe and East Poland.

a strategy based on the your opponent not knowing what to do is hardly a strategy.  What, are you playing children or something?

maybe we should look for strategies that involve playing someone of at least equal skill.
Any strategy stands a good chance against someone who doesn’t know how to respond.  I could build all bombers and plan to parachute into London and Ottawa and someone who didn’t know how to respond could think to build more AA guns because of all my planes rather than see my severe lack of ground forces.
Strategy ought to be how to put yourself in position to best win the game, not take advantage of a new player and shank them.
so like what, “exotic” here seems to be more like the kind of dance… ie you playing ‘dirty’ against unknowing players?..

@wodan46:

1. Russia moves its forces towards India, Buryatia, and Chinghai, accepting that it will lose its capital on turn 3 or 4.

@wodan46:

Germany shouldn’t be able to reach India until G6.  They shouldn’t be able to land Fighters in a Japanese territory until G6 as well, and that’s if they are careful.
By G6, Japan should be dead.

–so USSR falls on G3 or 4, Japan only has to hold for 1-2 more turns before Germany can hit India and US/UK have already had to reallocate to deal with a monster Germany/Italy and Japan can expand again “without” any Soviet reinforcements to hold them.  Not only have they not killed Japan, but they have lost USSR and given the Axis one front to fight on each instead of two…

@wodan46:

@atarihuana:

if russia goes down turn 4, what stopping german sending planes to japan to help. or sealion?

UK should be massing Infantry often.  By Turn 4, they should have 20+ Infantry.

what about turn 2 if UK spent all it’s money on IC’s… or turn 3 if they are trying to defend a J2 attack on India?  With US/UK merely building ground troops (well, really the UK building ground troops and the US ignoring Germany) in Atlantic a SA IC will not hold Italy and the UK navy will be sunk quickly and give Axis control of the water.

you have to expect them to respond well and then beat that move.  Giving up USSR, not taking Japan and allowing Germany to pressure India/England, Italy to overrun Africa (even with your 2 IC SA factory and Japan to reemerge by J6 is not a good plan…

unless you are playing newbs…

[wodan46]

@LuckyDay:

a strategy based on the your opponent not knowing what to do is hardly a strategy.  What, are you playing children or something?

Let’s test that.  Let’s say Japan sends all its transports to Iwo Jima loaded with forces and wipes out the West US units first turn.  They now have all 3 Carriers and 5 Transports within range of WUS.  What do you do?

Strategies are not as predictable as one might expect.  If the opponent fails to evaluate ALL the possible permutations your strategy could take, they can still get screwed.

@LuckyDay:

Strategy ought to be how to put yourself in position to best win the game, not take advantage of a new player and shank them.

Funny, when playing Revised (No Bid), I crushed an expert player by doing an extremely foolhardy kamikaze rush and taking Russia turn 3.

The reason why things like beginner’s luck exists is because experts build their strategies around their opponents acting smart, and they do not plan for their opponent doing something stupid.  Furthermore, experts probably can think of countless permutations of common strategies and easily think of the mathematically best response for them, but they are unfamiliar with more exotic strategies because they are almost never used.

@LuckyDay:

-so USSR falls on G3 or 4, Japan only has to hold for 1-2 more turns before Germany can hit India and US/UK have already had to reallocate to deal with a monster Germany/Italy and Japan can expand again “without” any Soviet reinforcements to hold them.  Not only have they not killed Japan, but they have lost USSR and given the Axis one front to fight on each instead of two…

No, my strategy is now built around USSR falling between turns 4 to 6, by which time Japan is dead or near death.  The Axis have to defend on two fronts (Germany and Russia) while attacking on two others (East Asia and the Pacific).  How exactly is Germany going to capture the Philipines or East Indies, while still holding onto all their conquests and all their home territories?

@LuckyDay:

what about turn 2 if UK spent all it’s money on IC’s… or turn 3 if they are trying to defend a J2 attack on India?  With US/UK merely building ground troops (well, really the UK building ground troops and the US ignoring Germany) in Atlantic a SA IC will not hold Italy and the UK navy will be sunk quickly and give Axis control of the water.

There is no longer a SA build, and the UK masses Bombers. The UK navy gets sunk first turn anyways, but the Bombers will SBR the Axis and kill any fleets they put out.

As for India, by R2, there should be 6-8 units in it, securing it, and by B2 there should be a sizeable fleet in front of it as well.

@LuckyDay:

you have to expect them to respond well and then beat that move.  Giving up USSR, not taking Japan and allowing Germany to pressure India/England, Italy to overrun Africa (even with your 2 IC SA factory and Japan to reemerge by J6 is not a good plan…

Japan is dead.  It doesn’t come back.