Russian Sacrifice Strategy

[Jennifer]

Because most Japanese players have it set up at J1 to hit India with a lot of firepower on J2 before England can build there, I don’t see why anyone advocates building an IC in India, at least until Japan’s gotten its forces moved out into China and a turn or two away from India anyway.

[mikecool70]

@Cmdr:

My thoughts, no particular order.

1)  I have yet been able to take out Japan before Russia falls.  Generally, I can get Japan, but usually a couple rounds after Russia has fallen and Germany’s become a monster.  Perhaps I am just not going about it correctly.

2)  Russia should be able to hold Germany back well enough if you retreat in round 1 and build nothing but offensive equipment that round. (Do not confuse this with nothing but armor/fighters for the entire game, I am only referring to round 1 purchases!)

3)  Africa seems to have actually become MORE important than anything!  I was under the impression, originally, that Africa could be shrugged off by the allies since they had NOs, but if anything, it’s even MORE important now.

1)  My strategy involves the Allies taking Japan 2 or 3 turns after Russia falls.  But before that, Japan has been reduced to only 8 IPCs and is effectively out of the game.  Also, since it kicks Japan off the mainland so quickly, there are enough Chinese and Russian units left over to slow the German tanks down to one movement per turn.  Sure, Germany will probably get up to around 100 economy but by then Japan is in allied hands, a massive fleet has been built up around UK to prevent Germany from attacking it and there is also a large transport system set up so that the Allies can attack from multiple directions.

2)  Yes, I know that Russia can hold off Germany long enough till the UK and USA transports start unloading in Europe every turn and that probably makes for a quicker victory for the Allies.  This is just a strategy that I came up with because I thought it would be fun.  Everyone’s been saying that if Germany takes Moscow then it’s over for the allies but I’m trying to show that that probably is usually not true.

3)  I agree that Africa is very important.  My strategy involves building an IC in the Pacific arena.  This leaves UK with 28 IPCs, allowing UK to build another IC in South Africa or transports to help keep Africa.  Personally, I favor an IC in South Africa since the transports could be sunk by the German air force.

[mikecool70]

@Cmdr:

Because most Japanese players have it set up at J1 to hit India with a lot of firepower on J2 before England can build there, I don’t see why anyone advocates building an IC in India, at least until Japan’s gotten its forces moved out into China and a turn or two away from India anyway.

If Japan sets it up to take India on J2, then it might be best for UK to build 2 bombers instead of an IC in the Pacific Arena.  Then build more bombers the next turn and send all bombers to within striking distance of the SZ next to Japan.  Sure, UK would lose its entire air force on the turn they attack the Japanese fleet but then the USA would lose less of its fleet and air force when they followed up to wipe out the Japanese fleet around turn 4 or 5.  Plus, more units set up to attack India means less Japanese land units in Manchuria, so Russia loses less tanks when it attacks it.  Also, with all those naval units near India, USA could consider building an IC in Alaska, allowing 2 naval units per turn to be within 2 spaces of the Japan SZ.  Such an IC would be able to drop troops off into Russia every turn once the Japanese are wiped out (in addition to units the USA builds in Japan each turn).

So, what the UK and USA do is reactionary to what the Japanese do.
.

[Jennifer]

That’s what I was getting at.

I don’t think you should plan on being able to put a complex in India on UK 1.  It’s far wiser to plan on not being able to do so.  (Routinely, I see 6 Ground Units, some shore bombardment units and 2 or 3 fighters in range of India at the end of Japan round 1.  this usually results in China getting an extra infantry or two, but that’s a nuissance in 1941, not a headache like in 1942.)

[a44bigdog]

I don’t think you have thought through all of Japan’s possibilities on Round 1.
As has been stated India is not secure and japan may even let you build an IC there so they can take Australia on J2 and take the India IC a couple of turns latter. On average dice a good Japanese player should have eliminated the ability for China to even produce units by US2. Any Russian attacks south from Siberia merely liberate a territory to count towards Chinese infantry production. Japan moves between Russia and the US. Don’t plan on it still being liberated. Japan also starts with a large fleet. It takes several turns for the US to catch up. Japan also makes more money than the US and can easily out produce or equal them while still fighting in Asia. I do not like the Alaskan IC. Every game of Anniversary or Revised I have seen it in the builder of it has ultimately lost it. Also how are the Allies invading Africa if the US is building Pacific Ships?

[DarthMaximus]

I think you are likely to see Germany counter with a Baltic fleet either before Mos falls or the turn they get to cash in from the Russian bank.

Germany only needs 60 ipc to buy 2 AC, 4 dd or 62 ipc for 1 ac and 7 dd.  I don’t think the Allies can sink that fleet so easily and if they can’t sink it right away Germany will just add to it until it is safe to move to sz 6, then they start pressuring London.

Japan will also realize what is happening by J2 and …

@mikecool70:

Now yes, Germany might build a ton of tanks and sweep across Asia, but the Allies can limit those tanks to one movement per turn, so it’s going to take awhile.  In fact, Russia could even vacate all of his units from Russia the turn before it falls and slowly move East with them, leaving behind one infantry each turn.  While Germany is taking out Asia, the Allies actually take out Japan and build up enough bombers to keep Italy at 0 IPCs every turn.  They also build up enough fleet around UK to prevent Germany from ever taking it.

Germany will not go after Aisa once Mos falls.

I think this is a lot of “ifs” to account for.  Without details, I’m not conviced you can sink the J fleet (which starts with 3 AC + planes, 1 bb, 1 CA), keep Ita at 9 ipc (and buy allied boms to reduce them to 0), AND keep the Germans from going after London.

[mikecool70]

@DarthMaximus:

I think you are likely to see Germany counter with a Baltic fleet either before Mos falls or the turn they get to cash in from the Russian bank.

Germany only needs 60 ipc to buy 2 AC, 4 dd or 62 ipc for 1 ac and 7 dd.  I don’t think the Allies can sink that fleet so easily and if they can’t sink it right away Germany will just add to it until it is safe to move to sz 6, then they start pressuring London.

Japan will also realize what is happening by J2 and …

@mikecool70:

Now yes, Germany might build a ton of tanks and sweep across Asia, but the Allies can limit those tanks to one movement per turn, so it’s going to take awhile.  In fact, Russia could even vacate all of his units from Russia the turn before it falls and slowly move East with them, leaving behind one infantry each turn.  While Germany is taking out Asia, the Allies actually take out Japan and build up enough bombers to keep Italy at 0 IPCs every turn.  They also build up enough fleet around UK to prevent Germany from ever taking it.

Germany will not go after Aisa once Mos falls.

I think this is a lot of “ifs” to account for.  Without details, I’m not conviced you can sink the J fleet (which starts with 3 AC + planes, 1 bb, 1 CA), keep Ita at 9 ipc (and buy allied boms to reduce them to 0), AND keep the Germans from going after London.

Yes, what UK and USA do depends on what the Axis do.  But if Germany doesn’t go after Asia after Moscow falls, then Germany is limited to around 60 IPCs (except for the one time bonus once he takes Russia’s money).  UK can easily build 50 IPCs worth of navy on UK 3, still allowing those first two turn of builds to be used against Japan.  Remember, once the Japanese are off the mainland, they are down to at most 10 IPCs per turn.  USA can easily spend about 30 IPCs to continue on against Japan while the other 20 IPCs reinforce the UK fleet.

[a44bigdog]

Japan can have UK down to 29 or 31 IPCs by Japan 2 by itself.

[mikecool70]

@a44bigdog:

I don’t think you have thought through all of Japan’s possibilities on Round 1.
As has been stated India is not secure and japan may even let you build an IC there so they can take Australia on J2 and take the India IC a couple of turns latter. On average dice a good Japanese player should have eliminated the ability for China to even produce units by US2. Any Russian attacks south from Siberia merely liberate a territory to count towards Chinese infantry production. Japan moves between Russia and the US. Don’t plan on it still being liberated. Japan also starts with a large fleet. It takes several turns for the US to catch up. Japan also makes more money than the US and can easily out produce or equal them while still fighting in Asia. I do not like the Alaskan IC. Every game of Anniversary or Revised I have seen it in the builder of it has ultimately lost it. Also how are the Allies invading Africa if the US is building Pacific Ships?

If Japan is going all out against the UK islands and India, then they are not putting many forces into Manchuria.  If they don’t take the Chinese territory Xingxia on J2 (which Russia can reinforce with 2-4 infantry and 1 tank) then those 7 Russian tanks along with those infantry can take Suiyan on R3 and then Manchuria falls one turn earlier.  Yes, Russia doesn’t get extra income from that territory (which is actually good since that is less money for Germany to take) but Japan loses 8 IPCs since the territory is worth 3 IPCs and he loses one of his NOs, negating his gains from the UK.  Japan starts out at 17 IPCs and USA starts at 40, so Japan does not make more money than USA, even if they expand rapidly.  Japan can’t fight off Russia, USA, UK, and China all at once.  Maybe 2 or even 3 of them.  But not all 4.

The Allies don’t have to invade Africa.  They can simply build an IC in South Africa and then use some or all of the pre-existing air force to support their inf and tanks in South Africa that move northward.  Italy can’t compete with that.

[Jennifer]

Mike,

You’re sending 7 Russian Armor into China.  What are you using to keep Germany out of Moscow???

DM,

You’re spending 60-62 IPC in naval units.  What are you building to take Moscow???

You two need to play each other so I can sell tickets and popcorn! :)

Just some good hearted ribbing.

Seriously, Japan can take out all the British islands in the world with 1 transport and 1 infantry.  They’re undefended.  Everything else is pretty much used to take out Australia (which is a continent, not an island) and Asia.

[a44bigdog]

Japan starts with enough troops to take out the islands and such.  Normally by the end of J2 I have taken Philippines, Borneo, E.Indies, New Guinea, Australia, Burma, Kwangtung and all of China except Chinghai. None of that involves any purchased units. on J3 you can count on 4 infantry and 4 armor being transported from Japan plus whatever built from my 1 or 2 mainland ICs. And I say 1 or 2 because I may be placing the second on J3.

There are easier ways for the Allies to win in '41. '41 is actually more balanced than '42.

I am curious if you have even played the game yet. I noticed your first post said looking at the board. Japan becomes a monster quickly in this game.

[mikecool70]

@a44bigdog:

Japan starts with enough troops to take out the islands and such.  Normally by the end of J2 I have taken Philippines, Borneo, E.Indies, New Guinea, Australia, Burma, Kwangtung and all of China except Chinghai. None of that involves any purchased units. on J3 you can count on 4 infantry and 4 armor being transported from Japan plus whatever built from my 1 or 2 mainland ICs. And I say 1 or 2 because I may be placing the second on J3.

There are easier ways for the Allies to win in '41. '41 is actually more balanced than '42.

I am curious if you have even played the game yet. I noticed your first post said looking at the board. Japan becomes a monster quickly in this game.

I don’t own the game but I’ve played it 3 times and I downloaded the map on this forum so that I could study the map.  Yes, Japan can take out most of the UK territories by J2 but only if they send most of their fleet away from Japan.  Any remaining fleet will easily be softened by UK bombers built in UK 1 and then finished off by the USA fleet and air force (USA could even build 3 more bombers on USA 2 once they see the Japanese fleet going towards Australia). Plus, Japan will only have around 31 income to spend on J2.  They can’t afford to be building an IC on the mainland if they really want to deal with that USA fleet.

And there is no way China is going to fall if Russia sends infantry and their tank into China, unless Japan positions a lot of planes to attack on J2.  But if they do that, then more of the USA fleet survives.  So I think it all balances out.  Sure, I’m sure a good player could make this strategy more difficult to pull off but I still think Japan is screwed if this strategy is used.  Even if I’m off by one turn and can’t kick off the Japanese from the mainland and destroy their fleet until turn 6, I think it’s still doable.

[mikecool70]

@Cmdr:

Mike,

You’re sending 7 Russian Armor into China.  What are you using to keep Germany out of Moscow???

DM,

You’re spending 60-62 IPC in naval units.  What are you building to take Moscow???

You two need to play each other so I can sell tickets and popcorn! :)

Just some good hearted ribbing.

Seriously, Japan can take out all the British islands in the world with 1 transport and 1 infantry.  They’re undefended.  Everything else is pretty much used to take out Australia (which is a continent, not an island) and Asia.

Oh, I have no intention of keeping Germany out of Moscow.  I only want to make sure that Moscow doesn’t fall before G4.  I think building 6 more tanks on R2 and retreating infantry from Karelia, East Ukraine, Belorussia and Archangel to Russia will guarantee that Germany doesn’t take it on G3.  Then on R3, I could even abandon Russia and send 6 more tanks into China for a total of 13 infantry and 13 tanks in Buryatia and China.  Japan is dead.

[a44bigdog]

I have played over 20 games. If the Japanese shuttle troops from Japan to Asia in seazone 61 they are out of range of the bombers from the west US. Japan can also have a carrier here with this fleet of transports on J2 and 2 off Australia to land the fighters that took it. With NOs in play which is how most of us are playing Japan has around 41 or so to spend J2 and around 51 J3.

[Jennifer]

You have 13 Infantry, 13 Armor in Chihang by Russia 3.  I’m not going to figure out where it comes from, I’ll just assume you do.

Germany has probably close to 20 armor, 15 infantry in East Ukraine by Germany 3.

Okay, who is going to win this scenario?  Russia will fall on Germany 4.  Japan’s still going strong, probably has half of China which is not as strong as normal, but hardly weak with the 3 National Objectives it has.

America probably has bombers in Buryatia/Stanovoj to strafe unprotected transports, which is fine.  Japan can easily keep a couple of cruisers behind to play mommy for the 4 transports it needs to clear Japan each round.  Meanwhile, Japan SHOULD have 3 battleships, a couple destroyers, half a dozen submarines and 3-4 fully loaded carriers prowling the South Pacific making sure America’s at home, tucked in bed at night and not stirring up mischief.

[DarthMaximus]

@Cmdr:

Mike,

You’re sending 7 Russian Armor into China.  What are you using to keep Germany out of Moscow???

DM,

You’re spending 60-62 IPC in naval units.  What are you building to take Moscow???

You two need to play each other so I can sell tickets and popcorn! :)

:-D
The Naval build would either come on the turn prior to taking Mos since those units (unless it is a bom) won’t be able to reach or help in the attack, or on the turn you intend to take Mos (again these units can’t help), or on the turn after you take Mos and its cash where you’ll probably have 70+ ipc to spend.

[Jennifer]

The turn you are going to take Moscow would be a good time to build navy.  Nothing you build this turn CAN help.

The turn before you attack Moscow not so good, IMHO.  May as well build bombers and bring more firepower to bear.  I have found, when attacking Russia, you never have enough firepower!  I’ve lost too many battles with 5 infantry, 5 bombers, 2 shore bombardments to 1 defending infantry to EVER take less into a critical battle then I could possibly get there! (the round before, I would build 100% bombers with scraps for infantry, unless I had my complex in Poland as well, then maybe some fighters there to boot, just for good measure!)

[DarthMaximus]

Yeah I agree.

It would completely depend on the odds for Mos.  If a couple of boms will push you over great, but if Russia is so heavily involved in Asia and essentially has only a token defense of Inf only, you may only need your inf/rt/arm already in place.

My main point is I think it is a bad assumption to assume Germany will keep plowing through Asia and attempt to chase down the Allies.

Even if Germany doesn’t go Naval and goes land, they probably go through Persia and go after Afr or perhaps Ind (if an IC is there).

I do like the idea of going after Japan, but I think you need Moscow to stay in the game for longer than 4-5 turns.

[Jennifer]

If Russia is going full bore after Japan in China, why would Germany follow?

Germany takes out Russia and the Eastern Block States (Ukraine, Belarus, etc).  Italy, free of interference, takes out Africa. (Russia’s already given up, so England and America are not going to be doing much to Italy, they’re going to be busy trying to annoy Germany.)

Meanwhile, Japan turtles.  I’d build an IC in Manchuria, maybe one in Kaisang as well.  No biggie if you lose these since no one but an Axis player can build there anyway! (ICs on Chinese land that is liberated goes to China but China does not build units!  Furthermore, since China has no capitol, you cannot lose the Chinese Capitol and liberate these for yourself!)  Basically, they’re tools you can use to help you resist Russia and England for a while and when they cannot be held any longer, just give them up.

Now you have a Germany with 70+ Income and Italy with 30+ Income.  Sure, Japan’s down to 8 Income maybe (I’ll give it to you that you are able to reduce Japan to only Japan by the time Italy has Brazil and all of Africa and Germany has Europe and half of Russia)

What now?

[Heavy Deed]

all is pure speculation until its tried…I say: Mike give it a shot. I will try it the next chance I get. I like to mix it up and I am not afraid to lose a game. After all,no one will actually die. This isnt reality but plastic and cardboard.