German "factory crush" strategy with little help from Mini-Me ( Italy)

[Driel310]

There is 10 inf in Cauc not 6, because you also start with 4 inf which don’t move.

I don’t see how much you can bring with Germany, but I seriously doubt you have good odds against those 10 on G2.  :wink:

[HolKann]

@Imperious:

Caucasus has 6 infantry defending. Its the new weak point. Ill take it with the tanks and stuff in East Poland and Ukraine, plus also take back Karelia but light and for good measure open either Belorussian and/or East Ukraine, so I can then go to Moscow one of 2 ways, and latter have a link to attack Moscow from Caucasus, which forces your Karelia stack to move to Moscow and you have no way to take Caucasus back as Japan lands 3-4 planes from FIC, with Italy scraps top hold up in Caucasus. Your plan is just trading one factory for the other by trying to defend all three. UK cant retake Caucasus and now soon India can even be taken by Germany.

No, it has 10 defending (4 from start who didn’t move, 2 from Kazakhstan, 4 build there) If needed, add the British ftr from Egy, and place 1 ftr less in Swe. Next turn 7 Brits+4 inf are coming to Cau (if needed). The 5 extra arm from Ger won’t hurt it :)

The plan to add Mos as a third by claiming Euk and Bel is interesting, but I think that with 10 extra inf on R2, Mos is safe, even if Bel and Euk aren’t reconquered. In the worst case, abandon Kar alltogether at R2, conquer Nwy with Swe armies, and prepare the British to strike back (buy 7 land units + 3 trns, + 4 units from UK2 landing in Swe.

If your stack moves to Moscow, the Germans builds can now take Karelia.

I think of it like a mother bear trying to protect 2 cubs a mile away…it cant cover both of them at the same time…one must die by the wolf. If it tried to protect them by staying in the middle the wolf can take both. UK ( played by little orphan annie is too weak to fight a wolf until much latter.

UK is income-wise stronger than Germany! But it is true the tank-pivot in Epl is very annoying to say the least. But once you conquer Kar, Cau is safe (the arms are out of their pivot-position), and the British are coming from Swe! The wolf can only take one cub, the other cub is safe with it’s mother then. And UK/father bear will be very angry with the wolf :D Remember that UK can bring on 8 units each turn to Kar, whilst it’s a long way for Ger to go to Kar.

However, I do think this is the best option for Ger, and with good play, both players will get an enjoyable game out of this strat. It will make the game more dynamic then the territory-trading we saw in Revised, whilst still giving both parties a chance to win.

Yes Germany builds a carrier and cruiser if they want a longer game, but the attacks should be the same except for the Baltic fleet stays in 41 ( less clear in 42)

I prefer the cruiser so i got a SB each turn for 4 extra IPC and better defense.

Germany needs the cruiser for both offensive and defensive. For Germany you can get away with a CV build on turn 1, followed by a CA build on the turn where UK builds or moves fleets in range of Baltic, or buys too many air units… so consider it the German fleet installment plan.

So 1 AC G1? That’s 3 arm less in Epl! Russians, rejoice! + most probably the ftr and DD kill eachother, which is another ftr gone… Add to that that 2 ftr have to go to Morocco, 1 ftr + bmr to Nwy (they haven’t got enough moves left to get to Bal). => the Baltic is underdefended: 2 ftr 1 bmr vs 1 AC 1 Cru 1 trn 1 sub (if lucky 1 ftr)…
You will need another DD or Cru (which is almost 90% of G1 purchases, so Mos will be safer). But then UK simply goes for a massive UK1 navy build-up, whit 2 AC, 2 subs, and total war upon the baltic fleet  :evil:

I don’t think Ger can go navy, except for a sub armada (which leaves no room for coastal BB’s or transports). Anyhow, if it does, then Russia will have much less to worry about…

[Imperious Leader]

UK is income-wise stronger than Germany!

only on turn 1, by Their turn 2, they lose 10-15 IPC thanks to Japan. leaving them at 28-33

SWE= sweden…which is not possible.

I guess if you hole up in Caucasus, i take Karelia with force to preclude any counter and reposition the tanks so they can strike at either Moscow or Caucasus…when you run back to Moscow to cover the Karelia threat. I either wait one turn and take all the other stuff, or take Caucasus.

This is a problem mostly about how the map is drawn than the pieces. remember 7 threes ( tanks) each turn require the Soviets to build a similar number of defensive units…but it cant do this at 24 IPC-8 infantry… each turn i gain 5 attack points in strength over you and with karelia is my hands because you left it a dead zone, UK will not try to come up to Archangel or they die. Also, we have not added in Italy which is bringing in 4 inf ( plus her 2 tanks and fighter and 3 shore shots) to follow up a German success.

[bugoo]

Ok I have a new idea for how to (possibly) slow this tactic down.

UK1 Build 3 bomb (36) 1 trans (or other unit or save).

UK2 Destroy med fleet with 4 bomb, and 1 fig, landing in Egypt or Caucasus. Have Egypt forces push forward.

With any luck if UK builds up some extra fleet on UK2 the US may be able to drop 1 trans in France on there second turn, followed by major invasions UK3/US3.  I’d probably go for an AC or two if needed(using US fighters if you lost any) plus a cruiser or two if the funds are available.

Also, with the remaining bombers, plus the US bombers you can reduce Italy to one inf per turn and begin picking on Germany.

At some point, probably turn 5 you should take Italy from France unless Germany begins coming after you, and even then you should be able to overpower Germany at some point.

[Imperious Leader]

If you dont buy a fleet on UK1 that transport is alone with 1 DD for protection. That means to dont even get to land anywhere till turn 3 and if you do your fleet is sunk by German fighters.

I may also take Egypt on G2, which deprives you of killing potentially the Italian fleet. I would do it if i saw you build the planes and have both Italy and Germany take both spots ( Egypt and jordan)

BY turn UK 3 you are making your first attacks to support the Soviets and they are strong in air support, but weak in total land units because of the builds going to air. I think you will bomb Italy, but lose the plot in Soviet Union. The race to kill Moscow is unmolested by uk land invasions.

I do agree that UK should built more bombers, but first the fleet needs to be established. fleet then air force other wise you cant use the few naval units you got and your not using all the units correctly. You have to find jobs for all your units so they do something everyturn, but your creating a new job position and not supporting your starting or leftover units.

[bugoo]

Actually I would be able to land in France on UK2 as my fleet would be deployed at the end of my turn.

Secondly I could use the planes for bombing runs, keep them in the UK, and just wait for you to hit the black sea to sink the fleet. (moving the fig to turkey with the retreating India forces or into Russia).

Lastly, the US could land on turn 1 if they wanted to bringing 1 inf, 1 art, 1 bomb on Algeria vs 1 inf and 1 - 2 figs.  IF the US wins there is no German air within range to strike back (granted just taking down 2 figs is a victory in its own as it allows the UK to build a much smaller fleet), now that I think about it UK could hit there turn 1 as well with 1 inf, 1 arm, 1 fig and 1 bomb.  Granted, you could leave more units in Algeria, but that would allow the UK to crush Libya on turn 1, which would not be a big deal other than if the Italians counter the fleet does not move and the UK air sends it to the bottom of the sea on the next turn since SZ 15 is the only safe location for the fleet without Egypt and Trans-Jordan as landing sites.

I personally feel that it is very dangerous for the Germans not to take Egypt on turn 1 as any loss in that area puts Italy in a very bad position which the allies can easily do with UK using a 3 bomber turn 1 build, but hey I’m just bored waiting to play this version on Triple A.  :-D

[Imperious Leader]

Actually I would be able to land in France on UK2 as my fleet would be deployed at the end of my turn.

Yes you could that would be brushed aside from Italian troops. ON UK 1 you want to buy those bombers. thats your UK 1 build. ON UK two you start with the fleet…but you only got 1 transport left from G1 naval attacks. I understand your builds go in the same SZ as the invasion…thats fine, but 2 land units is hardly a bother. We are just trading 6 IPC back and forth while Moscow is dying. I am keeping UK from helping the Soviets directly, because you choose to buy lots of bombers rather than transports and infantry on UK 1.

Secondly I could use the planes for bombing runs, keep them in the UK, and just wait for you to hit the black sea to sink the fleet. (moving the fig to turkey with the retreating India forces or into Russia).

I dont care if my fleet dies…this is a race to Moscow … on land. my tanks are not effected by your bombers sinking my fleet, while getting chewed up because you didn’t send any naval for soakers…that takes UK out for a turn while my Panzer rollers and killing Soviet infantry. Also you cant move into Turkey you cant even fly over it.

Thats the whole point of buying just tanks because i give up a proper attack for a long game… i want a short game and i am prepared to sac my fleets…for you to be bothered by it, while Panzers kill.

Lastly, the US could land on turn 1 if they wanted to bringing 1 inf, 1 art, 1 bomb on Algeria vs 1 inf and 1 - 2 figs.  IF the US wins there is no German air within range to strike back (granted just taking down 2 figs is a victory in its own as it allows the UK to build a much smaller fleet), now that I think about it UK could hit there turn 1 as well with 1 inf, 1 arm, 1 fig and 1 bomb.  Granted, you could leave more units in Algeria, but that would allow the UK to crush Libya on turn 1, which would not be a big deal other than if the Italians counter the fleet does not move and the UK air sends it to the bottom of the sea on the next turn since SZ 15 is the only safe location for the fleet without Egypt and Trans-Jordan as landing sites.

You cant take Morocco on turn 1. I got 2 fighters and 2 land units in it. look at my 1941 strategy map. I got Norway covered as well with similar placements. USA can just build some bombers and naval and build up.

I personally feel that it is very dangerous for the Germans not to take Egypt on turn 1 as any loss in that area puts Italy in a very bad position which the allies can easily do with UK using a 3 bomber turn 1 build, but hey I’m just bored waiting to play this version on Triple A.  grin

AS i said if i saw your UK bombers being placed…on G2 i would consider taking egypt. I don’t think Germany should take EGY on G1, but only on turn 2, because Germany needs its planes to sink UK naval assets on G1.

Look at the 41 strategy map, adjust for the lost UK and Soviet units, and make those builds for UK and THEN see what Germany can do. I suspect you will immediately find a solution for your allied counters. You will also see the trouble the Soviets are facing in 41. Even if you do all you say you have not stopped the germans in Russia… your going after the sideshows and not facing the problem directly IMO.

[Jennifer]

I don’t think Germany should take Egypt at all.  That’s a plum target for Italy.  You KNOW England’s buggering out of there ASAP if they are not killed by Germany to avoid those 3 Shore Shots (and I like to build a 4th for Italy on round 1 as well).

I do like reinforcing Morrocco.  You have that useless transport already positioned there, may as well!  It annoys England and America and protects Italy’s flanks a bit.

[bugoo]

I understand what you are saying and I could be mistaken, I just feel that the threat in the south is greatly reduced by sinking the med fleet allowing the Soviets to focus on the northern front to stall once you remove the threat of landings.  I could be mistaken.

[Imperious Leader]

If Italy built a 2 DD on I2 or I1 if playing with the NO’s…do you think uk can rid her fleet on UK3?

It would be 2 cruisers 1 Battleship, 2 destroyers against 3 bombers, 1-2 fighters?

14 vs. 15-18 and 6 hits vs. 5. that’s pretty close.

If i saw UK building bombers, id start 1 DD a turn and take Jordan on I1 and Egypt on I2

[Bardoly]

@Cmdr:

I don’t think Germany should take Egypt at all.  That’s a plum target for Italy.  You KNOW England’s buggering out of there ASAP if they are not killed by Germany to avoid those 3 Shore Shots (and I like to build a 4th for Italy on round 1 as well).

Italy only has 10 IPCs on turn 1, because you don’t collect the NO bonus until end of turn, so no 4th Shore Shot on turn 1.

I do like reinforcing Morrocco.  You have that useless transport already positioned there, may as well!  It annoys England and America and protects Italy’s flanks a bit.

I feel that taking Gibralter is more important than reinforcing Morocco-Algeria if Germany isn’t going after Egypt, because this instantly takes 5 IPCs of NO bonus away from UK, and it takes a potential landing zone awy from the Allies.

[Bardoly]

@Imperious:

If Italy built a 2 DD on I2 or I1 if playing with the NO’s…do you think uk can rid her fleet on UK3?

It would be 2 cruisers 1 Battleship, 2 destroyers against 3 bombers, 1-2 fighters?

14 vs. 15-18 and 6 hits vs. 5. that’s pretty close.

If i saw UK building bombers, id start 1 DD a turn and take Jordan on I1 and Egypt on I2

Where are you getting the IPCs from?  If UK builds 3 Bombers on UK1, then the only thing Italy can do with his 10 IPCs is build a DD and leave his fleet in SZ#14 to keep it together, which means that Italy will not be taking either Egypt or Trans-Jordan.

Also, you said earlier, that if you saw UK build 3 Bombers on UK1, that you would want to take both Egypt and Trans-Jordan to nullify the landing zone, but that still leaves Caucaus available.

I agree that the longer UK waits, of course, the bigger Italy’s navy can get, but one must remember that for every ship Italy buys, he has fewer and fewer land units to use.

[Krupp Steel]

Do we need to land a unit to capture Gibraltar? I am still a bit unfamiliar with it, thanks. :wink:

[bugoo]

Yes UK will always be able to sink the med fleet regardless of how many ships are built provided they have a landing zone, UK makes more money even after Japan starts taking territory than Italy and even if they do not hit the fleet they can always use the bombers for bombing runs which is very damaging to Italy.

At the end of UK1 they should collect around 30 IPC, plus 5 for the Gibraltar NO,  plus an additional 11 if they take France.  That is a potential 46+ to spend UK2, or another 2-3 bombers plus other units.

Lastly, depending on what your going for with US and if you going mainly air with UK to start dropping off two inf on Gibraltar (either US or UK) will allow you to land your fighters there to help against the med fleet.

Another possibility is to build 2 AC on UK1, letting the US land a fig and landing your 3 UK figs on it turn 1 (they can all reach SZ 27) along with whatever else you choose to build with 15 IPCs (1 bomb would be my choice, or a trans).  This will allow you to hit SZ 14 on UK2 with 3 figs plus your bombers, or protecting any/all landings on France allowing the US to begin the shuck fun, or simply moving into SZ 13 to deny Italy one of there NOs or SZ 12 allowing you to strike anywhere within the med on your next turn and cover US troops in Africa, or any other number of options.  If you really focus on Italy with US/UK they should fall by the end of turn 3 or 4 without strong German aid.  Use a similar method from revised, UK clears the sea providing escort and US lands the troops.

[Imperious Leader]

Where are you getting the IPCs from?  If UK builds 3 Bombers on UK1, then the only thing Italy can do with his 10 IPCs is build a DD and leave his fleet in SZ#14 to keep it together, which means that Italy will not  be taking either Egypt or Trans-Jordan.

Italy plays after UK. They take Jordan on I1, and Germans take Egypt on G2, before UK bombers arrive. ON I1 Italy builds a destroyer. ON turn UK2 the bombers have no place to land. now your talking another turn.

Also, you said earlier, that if you saw UK build 3 Bombers on UK1, that you would want to take both Egypt and Trans-Jordan to nullify the landing zone, but that still leaves Caucasus available.

UK bombers based on UK cant land in Caucasus from attacks in SZ #15. Thats the point. You got to wait another turn and on turn 3 i will place huge pressure on Caucasus and the bombers will all die in that’s battle as you take them off as combat allocations. 4 bombers and fighter for the Italian navy is a great trade for averting your bombers going against Germany. Plus i got 2 turns of free invasions, while the German medd. transport may have 3 turns

I agree that the longer UK waits, of course, the bigger Italy’s navy can get, but one must remember that for every ship Italy buys, he has fewer and fewer land units to use.

Yes right, but at least i focus the attack not on Russia, but on Italian fleet, which is a plus because uk is NOT helping Russia directly.

The Panzer rollers are killing the Soviets and the UK bombers are fighting Italian cruisers. Thats a nice diversion for UK strength. MY plan is to sacrifice everything for decision in Russia with overwhelming force of armor.

[bugoo]

If I am going to build for broke with bombers I will retreat all UK forces possible to trans-jordan. That is 4 inf, 1 art, 1 arm, 1 fig, you cannot destroy it I1 or G2.

In all honesty though I think I prefer the 2 AC 1 Bomb build, as it gives me flexibility on UK/US turn 2.

[Imperious Leader]

I can take it on G2.

I will move everything to Egypt and land 2 units from German transport on G1

Italy will attack by sending the tank into jordan and landing another tank and fighter, plus 3 shoreshots on I1

The new rules for invasions allows my fighter and perhaps a tank to retreat to egypt. I will get 3 hits

Then on G2 Germany swings with planes and lands 2 more in Jordan with stuff in Egypt. I think that will do it. Right?

Id rather UK buy a navy and start sending stuff to karelia. this Mediterranean exercise is a sideshow for the real pain in Russia developing. UK needs to focus on the REAL issue in Russia to pull it out.

[Zephaus]

IL - nice strategy. I played out a scenario with it last night, and it defintely puts the Allies on the ropes early. However, I think your USSR opponent is using the wrong builds. I’ve started playing with a 10 infantry R1 build. I’m coming to the opinion that an offensive build for USSR doesn’t make much sense because (1) strafing, in general, has to be used with more precision in this edition because of the defense 3 tanks and (2) the way you are structuring your advance doesn’t leave many/any opportunities for a good strafing attack. I’ve seen it work against a poorer German player, but the advance you outline doesn’t seem to leave open the same windows. It seems the better play is to have as much fodder as possible for the allied fighters that will be keeping Moscow standing while the UK/US tackle Berlin.

Also, I agree with HolKann that the way to deal with Karelia is to turn it into a giant deadzone for Germany - or what happened in the game I played out last night - just write it off entirely, and divert a bomber from the US force in the UK to cut its ability to produce. USSR’s only hope is to fall back, create deadzones, hope for a dumb mistake by the Germans, and wait for the US and UK to ride to the rescue. By the time the Germans got to Caucuses (G4), there were approximately 33 Infantry/Artillery and 1 armor in Moscow + 3 UK fighters. The US’s 5 bombers were taking a toll on German production, and the 4 transports full of US troops had just arrived in the UK to support the UK landings, now occuring in Poland to disrupt supply lines. UK had also taken North Africa.

Of course, to accomplish this level of pressure, Japan had been allowed to run rampant, with the UK withdrawing its forces from India since it was obvious that they would be crushed by the massive force your J1 sends that way. By G4, Japan had conquered India, Australia, and even Egypt, opening the way for ending the UK threat to North Africa. Japan would also be ready to start advancing on US assets in the Pacific on J5.

Unfortunately I ran out of time to play it out, but it felt close to me. Rolling out a potential G5 assault on Moscow with the combined remaining German assets was not pretty against the force in Moscow, due to the lack of German infantry to absorb casualties. And with the US/UK beginning to land large amounts of troops in Europe, it was going to come down to how fast Japan could force them to redirect assets to the Pacific theater. The US/UK play definitely needs some tweaking - I made some mistakes with both that delayed a strong landing in Europe by a turn, which is obviously crucial as this strategy plays out.

Would be curious what others are finding… ?

[bugoo]

@Imperious:

I can take it on G2.

I will move everything to Egypt and land 2 units from German transport on G1

Italy will attack by sending the tank into jordan and landing another tank and fighter, plus 3 shoreshots on I1

The new rules for invasions allows my fighter and perhaps a tank to retreat to egypt. I will get 3 hits

Then on G2 Germany swings with planes and lands 2 more in Jordan with stuff in Egypt. I think that will do it. Right?

Id rather UK buy a navy and start sending stuff to karelia. this Mediterranean exercise is a sideshow for the real pain in Russia developing. UK needs to focus on the REAL issue in Russia to pull it out.

UK goes after Germany. How are you moving all these units into Egypt on G1? Unless you mean to say you are changing your overall strategy and attacking Egypt on G1?  You have me a bit confused.  Also, where are these two Italian tanks coming from on turn 1? (please note I’m using ABattleMap so perhaps I have the wrong starting layout).  And remember, your German transport will get destroyed on UK1 if they choose (bomber or Egypt fighter depending).

Lastly, Italy only gets 2 shore shots on turn 1, unless the rule goes by ground units attacking and not ground units dropped from transports.

[Imperious Leader]

UK goes after Germany. How are you moving all these units into Egypt on G1

?

somebody said they are leaving Egypt on UK1. If you stay then fine. Italy takes Jordan on I1 and Egypt on G2. no place to land attacking planes. Germany has the resources to kill the uk in 41.

Unless you mean to say you are changing your overall strategy and attacking Egypt on G1?

I would consider modification if i saw UK build 3 bombers, but in any case Italy would take one and Germany the other.

You have me a bit confused.  Also, where are these two Italian tanks coming from on turn 1? (please note I’m using ABattleMap so perhaps I have the wrong starting layout).

1 tank, 1 infantry landing plus fighter, and 3 shore shots on Jordan. if you separate the uk force in Egypt to make this infeasible, then you weaken Egypt and i take it instead with a possible Italian sac on I1, then G2 we finish from libya and land in jordan with planes.

Of i write off the fleet, or i buy a destroyer for Italy…who knows.

And remember, your German transport will get destroyed on UK1 if they choose (bomber or Egypt fighter depending).

It may be landing troops with Italian navy on G1 to prepare the landing on G2, but yes you can hit it if its in black sea, which is my basic plan for g1.

Lastly, Italy only gets 2 shore shots on turn 1, unless the rule goes by ground units attacking and not ground units dropped from transports.

Thats a good point, which forces them to buy a transport depending on whether UK buys bombers.

But none of this is directly effecting the carnage in Russia. Your fighting Italy to stop Germany from killing Russia and that method is slow IMO