Are Cruisers for Losers? A video discussion

[CorporalClegg]

Check the link below to watch the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_P4GK8o2kE

Got a lot of great ideas browsing posts here on the forums. @Tizkit also gave me his review on cruisers which had some interesting points, thanks buddy!

Cheers!

[General 6 Stars]

Nice video. But I’m not even going to begin about the Cruiser costing 12.

[DoManMacgee]

Cruisers are useless. 2 SUBs beats a Cruiser every time. 1914 is the only game where a Cruiser is even something close to resembling being worth it.

EDIT: That being said, Cruisers you begin the game with are valuable assets that should be guarded carefully, due to their ability to bombard.

[Warpig]

@CorporalClegg I have been considering a house rule to add Anti Aircraft to cruisers to help with getting them into the game…

[General 6 Stars]

I don’t think he’s looking for a house rule.
Simplest way
BB C20 AD@5. SH @5
CR C12 AD@4. SH@4
This helps against the ridiculous bomber @4
But SH to strong. I don’t even want to go there.

[CorporalClegg]

@DoManMacgee
I agree with maximising use of existing cruisers.
Also I haven’t played 1914 so I cant really comment. But looks like cruisers are 9IPCs, attack/defend @3 and can move 3 spaces. Seems reasonable, but then again Battleships are only 12. Interesting! 1914 is definitely on my wishlist

[CorporalClegg]

@Warpig have you come up with anything yet or just considering it?

[CorporalClegg]

@SS-GEN
I’d be reluctant to have any units hit @5 but that’s just me. Have you tested these stats? How was it?
Also what’s SH?

[Pejon_88]

@CorporalClegg Very nice video!

[CorporalClegg]

@Pejon_88 cheers!

[Warpig]

@CorporalClegg not really yet but this got me thinking, there is a change for V3.0 of BBR added AA to BS…thought it might be better applied to Cruisers vs BS. some incentive to use Cruisers I think is needed. An additional change is that AA now negates TS for Tactical Bombers…so that would increase the incentive to use Cruisers, especially if there are Super Carriers on the board.

[DoManMacgee]

@CorporalClegg said in Are Cruisers for Losers? A video discussion:

@DoManMacgee
I agree with maximising use of existing cruisers.
Also I haven’t played 1914 so I cant really comment. But looks like cruisers are 9IPCs, attack/defend @3 and can move 3 spaces. Seems reasonable, but then again Battleships are only 12. Interesting! 1914 is definitely on my wishlist

1914 is different than the other games in that naval units are actually sort of balanced:
All naval units have 2 base movement, but can move 3 if their move originates from a Naval Base that’s owned by it’s original controller and is friendly to your faction.

Transport - Cost 6, do not make SZs hostile, do not participate in combat
Subs - Cost 6, do no make SZs hostile, 2/2
Cruisers - Cost 9, cannot bombard, make SZs hostile, 3/3
Battleships - Cost 12, can bombard, 2HP (but need to begin a turn on a friendly Naval Base to repair), 4/4

Interesting changes to the system to be sure. The math actually works out so Battleships are extremely useful if you can keep them repaired, and Cruisers/Subs are about even (although having more HP/dice-rolls is typically better than having fewer).

EDIT: There’s also the whole business of mines, but that’s way beyond the scope of this thread.

[General 6 Stars]

@CorporalClegg said in Are Cruisers for Losers? A video discussion:

@SS-GEN
I’d be reluctant to have any units hit @5 but that’s just me. Have you tested these stats? How was it?
Also what’s SH?

SH is Shore shot.
Have I tested these stats ? d6 no not really but d12 for a long time now.
d6 AD@5 you don’t agree with that’s cool.

Let me ask you this do you think a Stg. Bomber should get to drop the same payload
from first round of combat to the end of the battle no matter how many rounds of combat ? No not me.

As we all know to get pieces fairly worth it in games is you need at least a d12 system.
OK. d6 just doesn’t give you flexibility and you will have a few pieces to weak or to strong.
If you don’t want to change AD values then go with what is in the game as of now.
But for me and how I do it the DD is to strong.
Option 1.
BB C20 AD@4 M2 2 hits Sh @4
CR C12 AD@3 M3 Sh @3
DD C8 AD@2 M2
Now also give for each 2 capital ships get 1 d6 AA shot @1.
BB & CR 1 d6 @1 AA shot Pick the plane ? Should for that stupid bomber @4.
CR & CR 1 d6 @1 AA shot " " " " " " " " " "
1 ship = no AA
2 ships = 1 AA
3 ships = 1 AA
4 ships = 2 AA
Now from experience and major play testing and playing the M3 Cruiser is great.
It helps with small battles, shore shots and now with an AA shot with 2 cruisers and quick fleet defense. In my game Cruisers are cheaper but I’ll post what I have in my game at end here.

Option 2
BB C16 AD@4 M2 2 hits Sh@4
CR C10 AD@3 M3 Sh@3
DD C8 AD@2
with lower costs this gives you a more of a its worth a buy piece for BB &CR and is almost even with DD.
You could go with this too with the bonus AA roll shot.
Now I’ve played with these lower costs for a long time now and it works in my game even though its a d12 system. This just gives you some ideas but yes as I always say play test before you snap.
My game then I’ll get out.
BB C14 AD@8 M2 2 hits Sh@4. Dam AD@6 no Sh. Roll a 1 get a AA plane kill too.
CR C9 AD@7 M3 Sh@3. Roll a 1 get a AA plane kill too.
DD C6 AD@3 M2 Roll a 1 get a AA plane kill too. Depth charge shot @3.
Can only block 1 sub. 1 to 1 for FS.
AC C12 D@4 M2 against a plane only. Dam D@3 plane only.
1 ship blocks 3 ships. Not the whole fleet.
SS C7 A@5 D@2 M2 can dive with DDs present.
Fig C8 AD@5 M5 Roll a 2 or less get a DF plane kill too.
Tac C8 AD@5 M5 Roll a 3 or less pick target. Roll a 1 get a DF plane kill too.
Tac Can hit surfaced subs first round. Then sub can dive but DD present gets a depth shot.
These 2 planes cannot land on carriers.
N. Fig C8 AD@5 M4 Roll a 2 or less get a DF plane kill too.
N. Dive C8 AD@5 M4 Roll a 3 pick target. Roll a 1 get a DF plane kill too.
Same thing here as the Tac. against subs.
Stg. Bomber C8 A 3@3 first round only. Roll a 1 get a DF plane kill too.
All A and/or D planes can retreat after first round of combat.

We been playing these values for awhile now. You would think it wouldn’t work ?
But it does.
The Cruiser is a huge piece in the Pacific campagn. Next game we are going with raising the Cruiser to cost of 10 and Tac/Dive bombers AD@6 for first round only with pick target. Then AD@4 rest of rounds and then if roll is a 1 get a DF plane kill too.
This shows them dropping there payload on first round and then AD with there guns against every thing and a plane @1 if rolled.

Well that’s that.
Barnee should have some playtests for d6 he’s been doing for triple a.

EDIT. You may want to give the 2 ships 1 AA roll @2.
BB & CR 1d6 AA roll @2 kills a plane
Or
2 CR same as above
For every 2 ship or combo get a AA @2 shot
Per turn.

[barnee]

@SS-GEN
I’ve added some houserules for the CA. Most are community feedback. Not many have tried them that I know and don’t consider myself a good enough player to evaluate them all that well.

3. “BBandCA_AA” Battleships now have 1 AA shot and Cruisers 2. They hit at 1 out of 10 as opposed to 1 out of 6. It is recommended to wait until RD 2 to activate BB and CA AA Guns. This prevents breaking early RD battles and reflects the early war successes in air to naval combat. If “PlanesTargetNaval” and or “PlanesTargetNavalCV” has been activated, AA shots will also fire when Attacking. They will hit at 1 out of 12 on the attack and remain 1 out of 10 on defense. May also be activated via Map Options.

4. “PlanesTargetNaval” Fighters and Tactical Bombers now target Cruisers and Battleships prior to regular combat. Fighters get 1 shot that hits at 1 out of 12. Their shots do not stack. Tactical Bombers hit at 2 out of 12. Their shots do not stack. Also Tac Bombers will Defend with “1” 1 in 12 shot against Cruisers and Battleships which will not stack and Fighters will Defend at 1 in 12, which will not stack. Round 2 activation is recommended as well as using “BBandCA_AA” tech with this option. May also be activated via Map Options.

Note If “SubsCanEvadeDestroyers_ChangerMustActivate” tech has been activated and Submarines are present, they will also be targeted by Tactical Bombers, along with Cruisers and Battleships.

6. “PlanesTargetNavalCV” Fighters and Tactical Bombers now target Battleships, Cruisers and Carriers prior to regular combat. Fighters get 1 shot that hits at 1 out of 12. Their shots do not stack. Tactical Bombers hit at 2 out of 12. Their shots do not stack. Also Tac Bombers will Defend with “1” 1 in 12 shot against Battleships, Cruisers and Carriers which will not stack and Fighters will Defend at 1 in 12, which will not stack. Round 2 activation is recommended as well as using “BBandCA_AA” tech with this option.

I haven’t played this in a while and only have a few games tested. I think it’s probably pretty good as far as equal chances of killing stuff. A lot going on but I crunched the numbers hard and took fodder units into account as well as other factors.

For a simpler version I’d just give Cruisers 1 AA shot at 1 in 6. Drop em to 11 bucks

[Navalland]

Useless unit. I gave them AA ability they are now ok.

[General 6 Stars]

Oh Boy. Okie Dokie.