As many have already lamented, AA50 includes no rules for convoy attacks. The new transport rules for me makes this problem even more perplexing in that subs can’t destroy transports unless the entire defending surface fleet is wiped out! So, I propose as an expansion these additional rules. PLEASE don’t discuss convoy zones or the like in this thread, this one is solely for transport attack rules which I consider to be another way to represent the convoy war. What do you think?
Convoy interdiction
A submarine now has the option of performing a convoy interdiction instead of normal movement and attack. The submarine then has a move of three and it may move through all enemy ships including destroyers. A convoy interdiction is made against a sea zone with an enemy transport. Only submarines may take part in a Convoy interdiction attack.
Convoy combat:
Takes place between submarines and those units capable of anti-submarine warfare (see below). Each hit versus the defender means one transport is destroyed. When all transports have been destroyed, the defender chooses hits from other units taking part in the combat. If no destroyer defends transports, they are destroyed.
Anti-submarine warfare:
If submarines attack through convoy interdiction or if a sea zone is defended by only submarines, only destroyers may attack and defend normally. In addition, one additional cruiser, fighter or bomber per destroyer may take part in combat: they then have their hit roll reduced by ‘2’ (i.e. cruisers attack and defend on a ‘1’, fighters attack on a ‘1’ and defend on a ‘2’, bombers attack on a ‘2’). Submarines, carriers and battleships can’t take part in anti-submarine warfare. All units have their normal attack and defence rolls versus submarines if they attack in a normal attack or defend together with surface naval units.
Super subs:
In addition to attacking on a ‘3’, super subs may never be hit by fighters or bombers.
Shipyards:
Each destroyer now allows two cruisers, fighters or bombers to take part in anti-submarine warfare instead of one.
In addition, one additional cruiser, fighter or bomber per destroyer may take part in combat: they then have their hit roll reduced by ‘2’ (i.e. cruisers attack and defend on a ‘1’, fighters attack on a ‘1’ and defend on a ‘2’, bombers attack on a ‘2’)
I think this is too complicated. I prefer they all have the same capabilities ( they all ASW at 1), and i don’t know where you get bombers ability as greater than a destroyer. Also why would a fighter defend or attack at any difference against subs? Its the same act. Thats why they all should be at 1. like this:
Submarines:
Attacking Submarines can only engage enemy transports or perform convoy raids on enemy sea zones designated as such. If they elect to attack transports perform the following sequence:
- Subs each roll at 2 or less to hit. Transports are removed for each hit.
- ASW units (Destroyers and Cruisers) each roll hitting at one. Remove subs.
- Subs may elect to submerge or continue attack.
Note: If attacking ASW units engage the subs on their own turn follow the same procedure except ASW units can now be hit rather than transports.
Special Rules:
• If the active player has Super Subs Technology they attack at 3 or less.
• If the active player has ASW Technology, then planes can now roll for ASW as long as a ASW naval unit is present (at a 1:1 basis). Also, all ASW units now roll at 2 or less to score a hit.
remember also that planes and surface ships worked together to hunt subs, ( reason for 1:1 basis for ASW tech)
OK, I see the point that Subs should have some special anti-TRN feature.
The proposed changes, however, are a bit too complicated for me. Why not do something like this:
What happens when subs with other units attack ships with subs? Is this going Revised OOB?
This is kinda the same problem as in revised. Transports are not fodder. Transports can NEVER be used as substitute combat loses. The idea of bringing them with fleets to absorb hits is ludicrous.
If subs attack they should only be able to get after transports and perhaps in cases when just ASW attack subs, then they too can be hit by defending subs.
what about ASW units defending with transports? do they have any ability to retreat? do transports?
just trying to understand your idea
OK, I’ll re-write some & expand my line of thought a bit….
If a sub-only force attack a enemy naval force, for each SS hit, take a Trn as casualty, in addition to any other naval casualties.
–> if not sub-only force, then subs work as per OOB rules
If a sub-only force attack a enemy naval force, only DDs and planes may defend against the attacking subs
If a sub-only force attack a enemy naval force, the attacking Subs may submerge at the end of any combat round, even with a enemy DD present
–> no special retreat rules or anything like it. it is OOB rules, xpt for the above proposed house rulez! IL, I don’t quite get your comment as for “ASW units”. In OOB , that term doesn’t exist.
ASW = anti-submarine warfare ( currently DD and planes as long as a DD is present)
In the early war period, only cruisers and destroyers could do this, then bombers were used to spot them, latter Carrier planes flew over and shot at them.
But subs were NEVER used to get sent out to attack naval fleets because they were way too slow to engage them. The only hope was to make a picket line of them hoping the fleet passed in the sea just in the spot where they were on patrol.
So you can see subs had no interactions with naval battles unless it was a fluke.
Also, subs don’t shoot at other subs.
Some exceptions of subs sinking a carrier or battleship exist, but this happened in or near port and very rare and not represented in any AA scale so they dont need to be modeled.
Hopefully with some ideas here you can gain better perspective of these interactions.
- If a sub-only force attack a enemy naval force, for each SS hit, take a Trn as casualty, in addition to any other naval casualties.
–> if not sub-only force, then subs work as per OOB rules
Ok, Perry, this is a nice twist on the transport attack ability. The biq question is if you want to have a special ability for attacking transports as I propose or integrate it in ordinary attacks, as you do here. I still think a separate convoy attack is more fun and more historical. The Japanese for example always used their subs in normal naval combat. Yes, IL, they were very slow but they did sink quite a few capital ships, especially damaged ones, by picking off enemy ships before or after the main engagement (most notably American fleet carriers Yorktown and Wasp).
- If a sub-only force attack a enemy naval force, only DDs and planes may defend against the attacking subs
- If a sub-only force attack a enemy naval force, the attacking Subs may submerge at the end of any combat round, even with a enemy DD present
The “Sub-only force” I think is a good concept. But if worthwhile it should work in defence as well. I notice you haven’t liked my move three change, which I proposed in order to make it possible to buy subs in the Baltic Sea and get them out in the Atlantic even if UK has a naval superiority. The only other way around this problem is to have “Sub-only forces” get much better protection.
Perry. if you don’t wanna go for reduction in attack values as I and IL do, could you accept the 1-to-1 limit? Such as: “when defending or attacking against a sub-only force, only destroyers and one fighter or bomber per destroyer may take part” (if you don’t reduce hit rolls vs. subs I think cruisers shouldn’t be able to hit subs at all in this type of combat). Also allowing subs to move through destroyers and to submerge after one round of combat is necessary for increased sub survivability I think!
notably American fleet carriers Yorktown and Wasp
and i thought it was the Japanese planes from the Hiryu that did her in.
The only capital ships that went down solely by subs were Wasp and Shinano.
If Japan sunk the Yorktown by subs ( i am quite sure she didn’t), that’s after the battle, while it was sitting and listing.
IN any case by AA standards subs dont interact with warships in WW2. It does not meet the threshold in terms of ability and hard numbers.
