My biggest problem with Revised is that USA is impenetrable more or less, and it is SUPPOSED to be Japan’s main enemy. So how about this house rule:
If, on a single turn, victory cities Los Angelos or Washington take IPC damage equal to the territory’s value, that victory city is considered captured by the Axis nation that has done this damage. The victory city will not revert to US control until the nation which inflicted the damage loses its capital.
This gives (in LHTR) an alternative victory condition for Axis than taking Moscow. India/Leningrad/Bombing Los Angelos would be enough for a win. LA can be bombed from Midway, Alaska, and Hawaii. Eastern USA can only be bombed from Hawaii. Obviously, this is easy enough for the US player to counter… as long as he keeps the Japanese from getting too close to home!
Also, this is pretty much based on realism as well. If Japan conquered India, Germany was winning against Russia, and Japan was bombing USA to the point where their manufacturing in a huge part of the country was obliterated, I doubt the Allies would have been too happy to continue the war effort… and even if they did, the devastation of America being blown to bits would haunt the country for generations.
Seems a bit too powerful.
Perhaps if it was changed to just Japan taking SZ 55 OR taking W. USA.
Then again, there are rule sets out there that have turned Hawaii and Australia into victory cities which allows Japan better targets in the Pacific and encourages America to stay and fight. (Axis and Allies Revised: Enhanced - there’s a whole host of threads on it. Very nicely assembled.)
If you were to just move the Victory City from W. USA to Hawaii you could accomplish your goal as well. At least it gives America the chance to liberate before the game ends.
Thing is, I know form experience it is often better to not take Japan and just strip Japan of her navy and land holdings than it is to try and take Japan out altogether. (Heck ova lot cheaper too!) So making the fall of Tokyo a pre-requisite to liberate W. USA seems a bit harsh.
@Cmdr:
Thing is, I know form experience it is often better to not take Japan and just strip Japan of her navy and land holdings than it is to try and take Japan out altogether. (Heck ova lot cheaper too!) So making the fall of Tokyo a pre-requisite to liberate W. USA seems a bit harsh.
That is true. The point moreso was that America shouldn’t be in a position where 4 Japanese bombers are able to attack the Western or Eastern USA. Perhaps a better way to liberate would be better.
Well, I got the impression you were saying the instant Japan does 10 IPC SBR damage to W. USA it was defacto captured and could not be liberated no matter what until Tokyo fell. I just think that’s too powerful for the axis.
@Cmdr:
Well, I got the impression you were saying the instant Japan does 10 IPC SBR damage to W. USA it was defacto captured and could not be liberated no matter what until Tokyo fell. I just think that’s too powerful for the axis.
I was saying that when Western USA takes 10 IPC damage in a single turn, it is considered captured. However, this takes 3 to 4 bombers, plus control of a place to launch the bombers. These scenarios are difficult. But in a 9 VC game, the Allies can still win without Western/Eastern USA of course. Capturing Tokyo would never be necessary. Even if Japan took Eastern and Western USA through bombing (only possible if the allies COMPLETELY ignored Japan 100%), the Allies could win by capturing everything but Tokyo.
Yea, but they would have to actually score 10 IPC each round on W. USA in your scenario? Or is it the first time they score 10 IPC in SBR damage it’s captured forever no matter what?
@Cmdr:
Yea, but they would have to actually score 10 IPC each round on W. USA in your scenario? Or is it the first time they score 10 IPC in SBR damage it’s captured forever no matter what?
First time
That’s why I think it’s over powered.
Example:
Japan bombs W. USA for 10 IPC damage, it now has the VC.
3 Turns later, Japan has no islands, it’s lost it’s fleet, Americans are shelling the shores of Japan. However, Japan still has the W. USA VC because at one time it did 10 IPC damage to it.
@Cmdr:
That’s why I think it’s over powered.
Example:
Japan bombs W. USA for 10 IPC damage, it now has the VC.
3 Turns later, Japan has no islands, it’s lost it’s fleet, Americans are shelling the shores of Japan. However, Japan still has the W. USA VC because at one time it did 10 IPC damage to it.
The problem is, I don’t believe you are giving Japan credit for what it did. Bombing W. USA for 10 IPC isn’t something they just do and forget… it would require about a 45 IPC investment, strategic action against the US which replaces war against russia, and then, only if america continues not attacking Japan, it has a chance of getting the victory city. If Japan gets to the point where it is bombing the life out of America, I don’t believe America will “capture all of Japan’s islands” and be “shelling Japan” in 3 turns.
But more importantly, why does it matter if Japan still has the W. USA VC? If America has all the Japanese territories, that more than makes up for it and the Allies can win without Western USA, Eastern USA, and Japan.
But with this rule in place, an American player would have to be a fool to allow Japan to get in this position in the first place. If they make such a grave error, allowing Japan to bomb the heck out of America, terrorizing the nation… I’d say that’s worth a VC.
I am assuming that America went and helped take out Germany and only after that was won/in the process of being won, then moved their fleets into the Pacific to clean up there.
But because 20 turns ago (or whatever) Japan sent 2 bombers against W. USA for an SBR and managed to get 10+ (not unthinkable) they have a permanent VC that cannot be liberated for the rest of the game.
In other words, I think it is a little too powerful. Perhaps if the W. USA VC was liberated if Hawaii, Australia and E. Indies or Borneo were in allied hands just to give America a chance to liberate W. USA it would be slightly less, for lack of a better term, “broken”.
Although, honestly, I’d say if you wanted this rule, the best option (in my opinion) would be that the VC counts in the Axis total until Russia’s next turn. This way it automatically gets liberated by America but can’t be used in the allied totals for a VC victory if it takes 10 IPC in damage that turn. At least this ties up Japanese resources in maintaining it, can be used as a last ditch effort to stave off a VC win but does not make an unrealistic scenario where America just cannot ever liberate.
The next big issue is, under your ruleset as I read it, Japan sends 2 bombers into W. USA, gets 10 IPC and then can retreat those bombers to go do something else. Since America cannot liberate W. USA, this is a VC they don’t have to defend or attack or even concentrate on. If you had to conquer it, you would routinely have to reinforce or invade it to keep it under your control.
If, on a single turn, victory cities Los Angelos or Washington take IPC damage equal to the territory’s value, that victory city is considered captured by the Axis nation that has done this damage. The victory city will not revert to US control until the nation which inflicted the damage loses a victory city owned at the start of the game.
That make it less broken?
The Russia turn idea is what I was going for at first, but it seemed way too costly to maintain.
That is significantly better. (Allies can capture Kwangtung or Philippines easier.)
Though, I still think having it auto liberate after Russia’s turn is the best idea. That way Japan would have to maintain pressure on W. USA too keep the VC.
@Cmdr:
That is significantly better. (Allies can capture Kwangtung or Philippines easier.)
Though, I still think having it auto liberate after Russia’s turn is the best idea. That way Japan would have to maintain pressure on W. USA too keep the VC.
Perhaps if USA loses money due to bombing, the VC is captured, but liberated automatically on Russia’s turn? It would require pressure maintained, but not so much pressure that Japan needs to dedicate all of its money to bombing.
@Rakeman:
@Cmdr:
That is significantly better. (Allies can capture Kwangtung or Philippines easier.)
Though, I still think having it auto liberate after Russia’s turn is the best idea. That way Japan would have to maintain pressure on W. USA too keep the VC.
Perhaps if USA loses money due to bombing, the VC is captured, but liberated automatically on Russia’s turn? It would require pressure maintained, but not so much pressure that Japan needs to dedicate all of its money to bombing.
I think it would be okay as long as Japan has to successfully bomb W. USA each successive turn to maintain command over the Victory City there.
That way Japan can still screw up by sending one bomber and having it shot down, or America could get lucky and get 3 hits with it’s AA Gun against 3 bombers.
