i go for italy, but only when i am going usa atlantic 100% with intent to land in italy.
one of the downsides of bombing italy, is that they usually only produce 2-3 units per turn. so to make your bombing effective, you have to deal at least 6 damage, since they can just shrug off the first 4 damage.
however, if you have 3-4 or so total bombers between the usa and uk (easy if none get shot down), then italy is in a world of pain and can only build like 1 infantry per turn.
do a turn 4 or 5 landing with 4 or so transports full of american guys, and well… thats basically my allied strategy right there.
Italy + SBR = destruction?
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I just read an article from someone who played AA50 at the GenCon. Allies won by bombing Germany so she could hardly afford infantry to defend the borders…
Seems like we have flaw already in AA50.
That cant be extrapolated from one game that nobody has seen before.
I like 03321 would make the same point to emphasize that the first player to start building the bombers can gain a nice advantage by bombing first which causes the effected players to divert IPC to building their own bombers. Germany is the best position to do this, The Soviet even if he plays second needs tanks and fighters more than a bomber. If Germany bombed UK every turn ( they build 2 bombers on G1) it could cripple UK. I would worry more about them than Italy. Italy can be protected by holding africa and deny UK a base to launch bombers.
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the dice roll got to love and hate it!
though bombing italy is risky since i would just make(if i was italy) inf. artillery and a tank and trasnport(s) i2-i3 ill have my invasion force killing egypt if bombing runs were at me
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@Imperious:
I just read an article from someone who played AA50 at the GenCon. Allies won by bombing Germany so she could hardly afford infantry to defend the borders…
Seems like we have flaw already in AA50.
That cant be extrapolated from one game that nobody has seen before.
I like 03321 would make the same point to emphasize that the first player to start building the bombers can gain a nice advantage by bombing first which causes the effected players to divert IPC to building their own bombers. Germany is the best position to do this, The Soviet even if he plays second needs tanks and fighters more than a bomber. If Germany bombed UK every turn ( they build 2 bombers on G1) it could cripple UK. I would worry more about them than Italy. Italy can be protected by holding africa and deny UK a base to launch bombers.
UK can launch bombers to Italy right from Great Britain.
@Rakeman:
Law of large numbers.
I’d hardly call the 30 rolls involving a long-term SBR campaign against Italy over the course of an entire game ‘large numbers.’ Compared to regular battles, SBR involves very few die. I agree, though, that the average net gain more than doubling from Revised to AA50 will cause SBR to be used more extensively (as I already said).
@Rakeman:
What’s to stop the Axis from using the same bomb-to-death strategy against the UK? Russia.
What’s to stop the Axis from using the same bomb-to-death strategy against Russia? The UK.
Germany can buy 1 bomber every turn or 2 in Revised and get away with it until US comes in on a full KGF. Why wouldn’t they be able to in AA50? The question is more about whether US will actually need to pay attention to Pacific, which I (and I think 1 or 2 others) said a long time ago in another thread. If they don’t then they should be the one to employ the all-out SBR tactic, imo.
And by the way, if UK purchases nothing but bombers to try bombing Italy into submission, they’ll have basically no navy after UK1. They’ll have to wait until UK2 to buy some of that navy, and by i2 Italy should easily have taken Egypt. So now Italy is pushing through Africa, while UK probably can’t even land in Algeria yet, due to Germany’s air. Though maybe they’d have enough combined with help from US. On the other side of the world this means Japan should be able to take India without much trouble as UK didn’t reinforce it. So UK’s down to what, a low-20s income? And then they lose the rest of Africa and drop into the teens. I tend to think it’s going to be a bit more trouble for them than simply bombing Italy to submission and swatting them out of Africa. Certainly, I think that supporting a conquest of Africa with bombing against Italy will be helpful…game-breaking, I don’t think so. But hey, I could definitely be wrong.
Good points, I definitely agree that whether or not USA has to pay attention to the Pacific is the most concerning thing in this game, especially in a 15 VC game or something. If they do, then I believe any further flaws would be easily fixable. But if once again USA can ignore the Pacific, I don’t think this game will be nearly as fun as it could have been…
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italy wont be bombed alot people
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I am still not sure, why people are overly concerned about SBR;
We have now played three AA50, granted house games, utilizing the partial AA50 rule set, we have put together here online,
some points to consider;Item:Players have always used USA/UK bombers to bomb Germany,
now add Italy(same territory really as Souther Europe) to your list,
in our 3 games, it was not more of a factor, then usual, some hurt, but not overwhelming. (Italy? giving Germany less attention, priceless.)
(and, yes, our USA, UK players bomb every round possible, they love their bombers,
even, more bombers then usual were in play-cheaper.)Item:Noted, This AA50 game seems more mobile, w cheaper Naval units, new game mechanics, lots of action, get ready to lose those bombers.
Brief point, screening (at 8 IPC) destroyers, backed by cruisers are defending at 2/3, are soaking up a lot of attacking air power, costing 10-12 IPC. A subtle, but steady economic loss. The same results happened in the second game.
By the third game, everyone, began buying more subs to counter the larger naval deployments.
Air power may be losing dominance, fighters will likely have to get cheaper
(at least 8 IPC,) to stay in the game( Next game Rev-LOL.)
Hell, even the Germans/Italians now seem to have credible naval operations.Item:Disclaimer, of course our results, might not be yours, and yes we play with some AARHE rules, which could modify our results further.
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While I agree that SBR vs. Italy is interesting, I’m not sure its game breaking or indeed even stronger than simply committing men to Africa.
Regardless of Italy’s financial situation their builds on turn 1 will give them odds to take Egypt turn two even if the Brits reinforce it from both India AND Trans-Jordan. Dirt poor Italy will still bust loose in Africa and the mid-east eventually denying the Brits 13 IPCs.
Net gain for Allies: Italy -20 / England -13 = +7 IPCs.
If (instead of building bombers) America builds men and boats landing 3 INF, 2 Tanks, and 1 Artillery in Algeria on turn two, Italy is in a very rough spot. They might take Egypt but have their remaining forces could be destroyed by the two American tanks. At any rate they cannot break out into Africa in force since both of their nation objectives involve holding Libya, Egypt and Trans-Jordan. The Americans can continue to land more troops in North Africa than Italy could ever hope to. Once they hold North Africa and Trans-Jordan they are causing 10 IPCs “damage” anyway.
Net gain for Allies: Germany: -1. Italy -11, England 0 = +12.
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america doesnt need to go to afrika if usa wnats to do anything go say hi and land right on italy
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Actually when I wrote my response I didn’t know there were new SBR rules (which can be found elsewhere).
So again cheap bombers can make the level of SBRs more historical but it isn’t game over.
Standard tactics still apply.
Here’s an example series of turns assuming they Allies take a heavy SBR vs. Italy strategy.
Turn 1: USA builds 2 bombers and England builds 1.Italy builds a transport and saves 2. Italy collects 15.
Turn 2: UK bombs Italy. If it does more than 5 IPC Italy does not repair. Italy takes Egypt and collects 19. US finishes off Italy’s factory. Italy now has 36.
Turn 3: Allied powers are forced to bomb elsewhere. Italy repairs its factory and with the remaining 24 3 tanks and 3 INF. Depending on how well they did in the Egypt battle, they may claim 2-4 more IPCs worth of English territory.
Turn 4: Italy is shut down again and saves except to purchase a factory in Egypt.
Turn 5: Italy finishes off Africa and starts sending a sizable force to Persia.
And onward: Italy collects 30+ per turn while reducing England by 12.
If Germany can hold Ukraine then the Axis forces can 1-2 (or 1-2-3 punch Causcaus).
Japan can suicide in with some planes, then Italy can move land units in from Persia AND transport units in from Italy. Then if Germany holds Ukraine they can deliver the coups de grace.
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great strategy now everyone knows
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What if Germany bought 2 bombers on G1? now they have 3 and bomb UK?
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…if you bomb Italy a few times it think it will change sides in turn 3.
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…if you bomb Italy a few times it think it will change sides in turn 3.
Your consideration is based on the rules? Or is another consideration bond to Italy behaviour in WW2?
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Marechalleannes, can you explain how Italy will change hands on turn 3?
On turn 2 your navy (massive enough to resist attacks from the German Luftwaffe) arrives in zone 12. (entrance to Mediterranean).
If its not a multinational navy, Germany or Italy could give themselves a full turn by sending a sacrificial navy unit to zone 13 (western Mediterranean).
Regardless, German infantry in France can be sent to Italy to reinforce along with every German plane along with Every German tank aside from those starting turn 3 in Poland, Finland or Norway.
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There is no way to bring Italy down that fast.
I made a joke.
Italy joined the Allies in 1943.
If the allies are able to send three Bombers pert turn to Italy… That will a problem.
But you are not forced to repair you ICs. The maximum damage they can do to Italy is 12.
With the “keep-the-mediterian-sea-allied-free bonus” Italy can build a new IC in balkan.
Out of reach for allied bombers.And every allied bomber means less allied ships. Remember: german subs are safe from british figthers. Transports can’t fight anymore.
A good strategy for germany is to support Italy with the attack on Egypt.
There is a german Transporter in southern france. It picks up 2 Infantrys from france to egypt and with the german forces from lybia and the german bomber support you kill or reduce the strong UK forces in egypt.
Now UK will not be able to attack lybia or fortify egypt with the transjordan units and Italy is able to invade egypt.
By the way:I think the italian battleship and 1 cruiser are needed to close the mediterian sea at gibraltar.
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Then the USA invades North Africa, sweeps thru No Africa and the dreams of a Fascist/Nazi Africa is gone!!
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Did you read the sentence about the battleship and the cruiser at gibraltar? I am talking about turn 1, not turn 3 or 4.
… and that is what the Italians are for: To keep the allies out of the med sea and north africa.
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@Imperious:
I just read an article from someone who played AA50 at the GenCon. Allies won by bombing Germany so she could hardly afford infantry to defend the borders…
Seems like we have flaw already in AA50.
That cant be extrapolated from one game that nobody has seen before.
Playtesters have said the same thing though.
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Playtesters also helped create AAE and AAP and AAR and that didn’t work out that well either because they all need some fixes to make them more balanced leading to all sorts of rule systems and bids and tournament special rules.
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Ahh yes if i was italy i would wish for a better navy because italy has 12 ipcs and lets say +5 from med bonus even so thats not enough for some big ships and you need inf. at lybia every turn or else
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That is right. Two infantrys or inf + artillery should be the basic production for the italians.
…and you need to cover your battleship and the cuisers from turn 2 or 3. Subs are cheap (6 IPCs).
But I think it is no solution to hide the impressive Italian fleet in the firts turns.
The germans will clear the north sea and northern atlantik from UK ships (especiallay UK destroyers) in the first turn. Teamwork is essential.
There is never enough money for big ships if two opponents concentrate on you. No matter if you german or italian.
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