Transports in combat

[Imperious Leader]

Destroyers are the ‘infantry of the seas’ as they should be. I knew this day would come and it finally has.

[Bluestroke]

@Admiral:

@Black_Elk:

Fricken subs are everywhere.  Which means you better have destroyers. 
Note: we use the hidden rule-where subs orders are written down on paper and you only see them when a destroyer finds em or you attack out of the blue… and at 6 IPC there are a lot of subs(add improved ship yards Tech at 5 IPC the wolf pack is back.)

I’ve never heard of this house rule before, but I’m greatly intrigued. At what point do the subs ‘disapear’ after they’ve been built? And with combat, do they ‘disapear’ immediately following combat phase? Those of you who’ve tried it with other A&A games, does this rule make subs overpowered?  I can see that this rule can cause some real headaches for the Allies, which is always entertaining. In anycase, I’m definitely going to try this one.

item:We place them in play at IP Factory, as usual at the end of your turn. 
( We believe intelligence networks nominaly alerted commands, of vessels leaving sub pens. ) 
item: Next, during your combat movement you submerge (move) the sub to side of the board, with a territory control marker and write down what sea zone it moved. 
Each turn, even if the sub holds station, you must write in the seazone and turn.
when you attack, you have proof of route to the attack. 
It gives subs, what they were, stealth/ambush strikes. 
note:If, destroyers are ever present in a sea zone, your subs must be revealed and placed on board, this is automatic.
item:OOps forgot, once exposed in combat,  contact revealed their( the subs ) position, now known, you can not submerge, until normal Revised rules, either thru retreated combat submerge, or your next move phase. 
We did not elaborate into ASW dice roles.  Depends on your complexity level here, maybe something you could add for advanced play.
Wd don’t claim credit for this rule.
I believe someone on this site already provided it.  We just use it.

[Jennifer]

Thank you for the compliment, Bluestroke.

In case anyone wonders, yes, I have played with the 3 IPC naval unit that cannot attack but can defend. (basically a transport that cannot transport anything.)  We actually play tested it at 5 IPC first, but it was not cheap enough to make it viable (submarines were just better because they could attack.)  Later we decided to try it at 3 IPC (because at the time we were playing classic and there was nothing that cost 4 IPC without technology - which we outlawed until after game turn 20 and then everyone automatically got Heavy Bombers and Long Range Aircraft.)  3 IPC seemed to work.

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Back on topic.  Do we have an eta on release date and when someone will scan the rules into PDF?

[03321]

@Cmdr:

Do we have an eta on release date and when someone will scan the rules into PDF?

An underground police force has been formed to keep all PDFs off the internets until after you have played at least one game FTF.  :evil:

I seem to remember reading Oct. 23rd as the scheduled release date.

[Admiral T]

I really like these house rules on stealth submarines Bluestroke. Thanks. I can really only see two problems that could come from them…

First, all the players must be very diligent in their order writing. How tragic would it be to incorrectly write an order, or forget, thereby causing your whole plan to fail. Although this kind of adds an exciting flavor to the game which simulates a failure of communication lines. I really like this! On the flip side however, what happens to a sub if a series of movements culminating in some sort of combat situation are discovered to be based off of an incorrect, or impossible movement made much earlier in the units lifetime? Does this negate that particular submarines activity since that incorrect order? Does that submarine have to withdraw from that combat situation, or is it played out regardless of that earlier error?

Second, all the players must be completely honest with each other when a submarine is found by a destroyer, whether it be by accident or on purpose. If one player isn’t completely honest, then the game could become very frustrating and a source of bitter arguments.  What type of repercussions do you use to deter those from committing such deceit ? Perhaps eliminating that submarine from play would be appropriate?

Hopefully all the people I play with have enough brains to avoid screwing things up, and have enough dignity to not cheat.  :lol:

[Jennifer]

Stealth submarines would be doable.  We once played with two boards and a Game Master.  You could only “see” units adjacent too your units or if you did a pre-combat move which was a “scout” by sending a fighter up to two territories out and back to see what was there.

It was a good way to chew up fighters and prevent them from attacking because they were now “moved” and could not engage in combat or NCM.

It was a pain on the game master though.  He had to do a lot of running back and forth to make sure things were correct on both boards.

But it was fun!

For instance, in one game, Japan conquered England! (And yes, England was the first to fall, Japan just sailed around Africa and up with 3 transports loaded with 4 infantry, 1 armor - this was classic, so that’s full transports)

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I want a PDF of the rules.  I’ll buy the dang game, I just don’t want to break the shrink wrap on it!

[Bluestroke]

@Admiral:

I really like these house rules on stealth submarines Bluestroke. Thanks. I can really only see two problems that could come from them…

First, all the players must be very diligent in their order writing. How tragic would it be to incorrectly write an order, or forget, thereby causing your whole plan to fail. Although this kind of adds an exciting flavor to the game which simulates a failure of communication lines. I really like this! On the flip side however, what happens to a sub if a series of movements culminating in some sort of combat situation are discovered to be based off of an incorrect, or impossible movement made much earlier in the units lifetime? Does this negate that particular submarines activity since that incorrect order? Does that submarine have to withdraw from that combat situation, or is it played out regardless of that earlier error?

Yes, the sub attacker must prove his path.  Any navigation mistakes cause the sub to be relocated back to where it should be, its actual locale, is exposed without an attack.
navigation incompetence is punished.

Second, all the players must be completely honest with each other when a submarine is found by a destroyer, whether it be by accident or on purpose. If one player isn’t completely honest, then the game could become very frustrating and a source of bitter arguments.  What type of repercussions do you use to deter those from committing such deceit ? Perhaps eliminating that submarine from play would be appropriate?

yes, integrity is required.  When destroyers enter sea zones, they have the right to demand sub review, so no one can feign ignorance.

Hopefully all the people I play with have enough brains to avoid screwing things up, and have enough dignity to not cheat.  :lol:

We enjoy it, the extra surprise element adds to the texture of the game.

[JohnBarbarossa]

Does anyone know (Krieghund?) what happens to transports when the following situation occurs:
A BB plus (loaded) trn moves into a seazone to conduct an amphibious assault. In the seazone are present a BB and a trn. The battleships start to go off at each other and both are destroyed.

What happens to the transports? Can they both keep on occupuying the same seazone (until one side sends in combat units) since they are not combat units? Can the amphibious assault still take place?

Another question I have is regarding subs and transports. For example take the German Baltic fleet. There are 1 ss, 1 ca and 1 trn there.

Let’s suppose there are no changes when it is UK’s turn and they attack it with their air (2 ftr, 1 bmb). The UK air combats the cruiser and wins easily. What happens next? Is the transport automatically destroyed even though there still remains combat units? (planes cannot see the subs and vice versa). So in the end only the sub remain?

If this is the case it would mean that the Baltic fleet is of not much use to Germany. Even less than in Revised/Classic.

[Krieghund]

@JohnBarbarossa:

Does anyone know (Krieghund?) what happens to transports when the following situation occurs:
A BB plus (loaded) trn moves into a seazone to conduct an amphibious assault. In the seazone are present a BB and a trn. The battleships start to go off at each other and both are destroyed.

What happens to the transports? Can they both keep on occupuying the same seazone (until one side sends in combat units) since they are not combat units? Can the amphibious assault still take place?

Both transports would survive, since neither side has any combat units left to destroy them with.  The attacker would then have the choice to either retreat or continue with the amphibious assault.

@JohnBarbarossa:

Another question I have is regarding subs and transports. For example take the German Baltic fleet. There are 1 ss, 1 ca and 1 trn there.

Let’s suppose there are no changes when it is UK’s turn and they attack it with their air (2 ftr, 1 bmb). The UK air combats the cruiser and wins easily. What happens next? Is the transport automatically destroyed even though there still remains combat units? (planes cannot see the subs and vice versa). So in the end only the sub remain?

If this is the case it would mean that the Baltic fleet is of not much use to Germany. Even less than in Revised/Classic.

Since the planes and subs can’t hit each other, the transport is defenseless and is destroyed.

[JohnBarbarossa]

That’s what I thought, it would be the most logical thing to happen. Thanks Krieghund for confirming it.

[italiansarecoming]

WOW! finally so transports are defensless@Krieghund:

@JohnBarbarossa:

Does anyone know (Krieghund?) what happens to transports when the following situation occurs:
A BB plus (loaded) trn moves into a seazone to conduct an amphibious assault. In the seazone are present a BB and a trn. The battleships start to go off at each other and both are destroyed.

What happens to the transports? Can they both keep on occupuying the same seazone (until one side sends in combat units) since they are not combat units? Can the amphibious assault still take place?

Both transports would survive, since neither side has any combat units left to destroy them with.  The attacker would then have the choice to either retreat or continue with the amphibious assault.

@JohnBarbarossa:

Another question I have is regarding subs and transports. For example take the German Baltic fleet. There are 1 ss, 1 ca and 1 trn there.

Let’s suppose there are no changes when it is UK’s turn and they attack it with their air (2 ftr, 1 bmb). The UK air combats the cruiser and wins easily. What happens next? Is the transport automatically destroyed even though there still remains combat units? (planes cannot see the subs and vice versa). So in the end only the sub remain?

If this is the case it would mean that the Baltic fleet is of not much use to Germany. Even less than in Revised/Classic.

Since the planes and subs can’t hit each other, the transport is defenseless and is destroyed.

[italiansarecoming]

new and testing out qoutes dotn midn the mishap

[marechallannes]

Enemy subs and enemy transports dont block the seazones anymore.
So it is possible to move only with a transport through a seazone occupied by 1 or more enemy subs?

[Krieghund]

@marechallannes:

Enemy subs and enemy transports dont block the seazones anymore.
So it is possible to move only with a transport through a seazone occupied by 1 or more enemy subs?

Yes.

[italiansarecoming]

transports are not blocks no more sob oh well this does not matter because i will just use destroyers then also my favourite country to be is russia because infantry infantry and infantry and now artillery yes i will not need tanks yes :evil:

[Funcioneta]

@Krieghund:

@marechallannes:

Enemy subs and enemy transports dont block the seazones anymore.
So it is possible to move only with a transport through a seazone occupied by 1 or more enemy subs?

Yes.

Ugh … pretty ugly effect … shouldn’t be sub’s target allied convoys (in this game, trannies)?

[Krieghund]

@Funcioneta:

@Krieghund:

@marechallannes:

Enemy subs and enemy transports dont block the seazones anymore.
So it is possible to move only with a transport through a seazone occupied by 1 or more enemy subs?

Yes.

Ugh … pretty ugly effect … shouldn’t be sub’s target allied convoys (in this game, trannies)?

Yes, and on the sub’s turn it can move and destroy that unescorted transport automatically.

[italiansarecoming]

the subs will attack the trannie if they desire on there turn. I would like to piont out that i read a thread that subs can go through sea zones were destroyers are and not get attacked if the destroyer does not roll a 3 or lower and this roll gos for each 1 there.

Example. 3 subs are coming from a sea (baltic sea)  then in the english channel is 2 destroyers the 3 subs go to the sea under france but before they make it 2 destroyers get to roll 2 dice of 3 or lower if they find these 3 subs then they may choose to attack it. Nice thing huh subs go sub!

[Bardoly]

A question about transports in combat.

Here is the situation.

Turn 1 England moves an unescorted Transport to Sea Zone 12 in the Atlantic next to Gibraltar and offloads troops in Gibraltar.  On Italy’s turn, can he move his entire fleet from Italy to Sea Zone 12 and get 2 Shore Bombard shots (a “4” from his Battleship and a “3” from his Cruiser) and attack Gibraltar with 2 land troops (a man and a tank) and have the UK transport distroyed?

Please answer this, because this is an actual situation in a game we are currently playing.

[Imperious Leader]

we are currently playing….

Playing AA50 already?