Techs

[squirecam]

@Lynxes:

/greand stone

The way tech rolls now work, you get to keep tech rolls you buy to the next turn. So if a nation buys two tech rolls/turn, they will get 2 tech rolls the first turn and FOUR tech rolls the next turn if they don’t succeed the first turn. So you’ll get a tech every 2nd turn -> US will only have to wait 6 turns to get HBMBs w. 10 IPCs/turn investment on average.

/Romulus

The idea with tech to counter HBMBs is to get the tech before you get hit by a massive bombing campaign. Investment from turn 1.

/axis_roll

I’m basically with you in your critique of HBMB rules, but I also think I understand Krieghund’s position. He’s been recruited to be an answer guy for AA50, and not discuss the rule changes critically. From what he’s written so far, I understand that Jets won’t have any interception function, and I now edit that out from my starting post.

Balance-wise, it may be that the national objectives saves the Axis. Either to put money into techs to counter HBMBs or to win a victory on VCs before those HBMBs will able to put into effect. Take a look at the thread on NOs that I started, Germany and Japan will get 5-15 IPCs extra EACH TURN just by taking historically conquered territories. Maybe the idea is that US needs to be able to get HBMBs to counter that?

So are we playing A&A? Or are we playing “Who gets tech fastest”?

Axis and alies is supposed to be a strategy wargame that happens to involve dice. It should not be a dice game that sometimes has startegy.

But making HB strong again pretty much counters every axis strategy. Japan cant reach USSR (or USA) with them, and Germany needs land units. Italy is cash poor.

That leaves good old USA to exploit HB. How wonderful… :roll:

[Krieghund]

@Lynxes:

/greand stone

The way tech rolls now work, you get to keep tech rolls you buy to the next turn. So if a nation buys two tech rolls/turn, they will get 2 tech rolls the first turn and FOUR tech rolls the next turn if they don’t succeed the first turn. So you’ll get a tech every 2nd turn -> US will only have to wait 6 turns to get HBMBs w. 10 IPCs/turn investment on average.

That’s true, with average results.  However 60 IPCs is a lot to risk on getting average results.  You could buy 5 normal bombers for that.

@Lynxes:

/axis_roll

I’m basically with you in your critique of HBMB rules, but I also think I understand Krieghund’s position. He’s been recruited to be an answer guy for AA50, and not discuss the rule changes critically.

Thanks, Lynxes.  However, I haven’t exactly been “recruited”.  I volunteered.  At the time, I didn’t know that “lightning rod” was in the job description.  :wink:

[Greand Stone]

Lynxes, I missunderstood. I thought you bought 2 scientist and rolled untill you got a result.

Yes, investing 10ipc every round gives you 1 technology every 2 turns.
But then it still takes in average 7 turns before getting heavy bobmers and the price has become 70IPC in average.
And as allways nothing is garranteed. Still, the allied benefit in IPC in the 1941 senario is so large thatn US meight
be able to spend 10IPC every round without to large sacrifice. The thing that meight rebalance thins is the bonus IPC.

What I’m more worried about actually is that to many technologies will be too useless in to many situations.
Still, the list or technologies is not 100%. The old ‘jet’ technology is completly useless, so I’m geussing it
has changed, but I dont know how.

[squirecam]

@Krieghund:

Thanks, Lynxes.  However, I haven’t exactly been “recruited”.  I volunteered.  At the time, I didn’t know that “lightning rod” was in the job description.  :wink:

After finally fixing HB with LHTR, you couldn’t see this firestorm coming?   :-D

[Lynxes]

/Krieghund

Yes, you can buy 5 normal bombers for 60 IPCs. But on average, US also gets two out of Rockets, Super Subs, Long-range aircraft, Jet fighters or Shipyards. Not too bad. I’m only worried for game balance though, I don’t have any qualms with the US being technologically superior since that is very much in line with history and character for a WWII game. After all, if you count the B29 as the HBMB you could argue that the US historically got Shipyards, Heavy Bombers and Long-range aircraft, requiring that 60-70 IPC investment!

[Krieghund]

@squirecam:

@Krieghund:

Thanks, Lynxes.  However, I haven’t exactly been “recruited”.  I volunteered.  At the time, I didn’t know that “lightning rod” was in the job description.  :wink:

After finally fixing HB with LHTR, you couldn’t see this firestorm coming?   :-D

I honestly don’t see what the big deal is. (ducks)

Heavy Bombers needed to be nerfed from Revised because they were too powerful.  The drastic steps taken in LHTR were needed because you could specifically go for Heavy Bombers.  With tech acquisition back to being random, they can be a bit more powerful, as the chances of getting them is much smaller and thus more risky.

The bottom line is that techs are an optional rule.  If you don’t like them, don’t use them.  The idea that the use of an optional rule is needed for game balance is a bit silly.

[Krieghund]

@Lynxes:

/Krieghund

Yes, you can buy 5 normal bombers for 60 IPCs. But on average, US also gets two out of Rockets, Super Subs, Long-range aircraft, Jet fighters or Shipyards. Not too bad. I’m only worried for game balance though, I don’t have any qualms with the US being technologically superior since that is very much in line with history and character for a WWII game. After all, if you count the B29 as the HBMB you could argue that the US historically got Shipyards, Heavy Bombers and Long-range aircraft, requiring that 60-70 IPC investment!

On average, yes.  But there’s a good possibility that you’ll get less than three of these things, and maybe none at all.  You can buy a lot of war materiel with 60-70 IPCs.

[squirecam]

@Krieghund:

@squirecam:

@Krieghund:

Thanks, Lynxes.  However, I haven’t exactly been “recruited”.  I volunteered.  At the time, I didn’t know that “lightning rod” was in the job description.  :wink:

After finally fixing HB with LHTR, you couldn’t see this firestorm coming?   :-D

I honestly don’t see what the big deal is. (ducks)

Heavy Bombers needed to be nerfed from Revised because they were too powerful.  The drastic steps taken in LHTR were needed because you could specifically go for Heavy Bombers.  With tech acquisition back to being random, they can be a bit more powerful, as the chances of getting them is much smaller and thus more risky.

The bottom line is that techs are an optional rule.  If you don’t like them, don’t use them.  The idea that the use of an optional rule is needed for game balance is a bit silly.

I said this at the time, and I’ll say it again now. HB were overpowered, not because you could “target” them (which was bad enough) but because only ONE country could realistically take advantage of them.

Take a look at the board. Japan is not going to benefit from HB. They cant use them on USSR or USA. Germany requires land units. Italy is cash poor.

USA has a safe area (UK) from which to launch HB and its own capital is safe from invasion. This makes HB, in the hands of USA, disproportionally powerful. And since USA has the income to be able to “waste” some on tech, it benefits.

And I care if tournaments (or online play) allow tech use. Which was why people cared about LHTR, as they were the ruleset used for those situations.

[Krieghund]

@squirecam:

And I care if tournaments (or online play) allow tech use. Which was why people cared about LHTR, as they were the ruleset used for those situations.

Good point.  However, I was under the impression that tournaments generally don’t use techs.  Is this incorrect?

As for on-line play, if the rule is optional, what’s forcing you to use it?

The real question becomes this:  If you nerf techs to the point where they’re nearly useless, what’s the point of having them at all?

[axis_roll]

Krieghund,

Whenever it is that you decide you can give more details that will enable Germany to be able to fend of an allied bombing strategy, send me a PM.

Notice I didn’t say Heavy Bomber strategy.

Sure, HB’s will make the bombing campaign even more effective, but I doubt they will be necessary, at least that’s my perspective from the few details I have at this time.  There I go, speculating on game strategies without knowing the rules.

Quite hypocritcal of me, I know.  :oops:  :cry:

apologies.

[squirecam]

@Krieghund:

@squirecam:

And I care if tournaments (or online play) allow tech use. Which was why people cared about LHTR, as they were the ruleset used for those situations.

Good point.  However, I was under the impression that tournaments generally don’t use techs.  Is this incorrect?

As for on-line play, if the rule is optional, what’s forcing you to use it?

The real question becomes this:  If you nerf techs to the point where they’re nearly useless, what’s the point of having them at all?

Well, lets look at history.

In Classic, you wanted HB. If you got super subs instead, you were disappointed. The point being that tech was not equal, some were obviously better than others.

Revised made tech “directed”, which simply reduced which techs one went for. LHTR saved this by nerfing HB, which would otherwise clearly be the one USA wanted.

Techs, therefore, should be equally good. (or, therefore, equally bad). But more than, that, they should provide a specific benefit that is NOT overpowering. (Nor overpowered in the hands of a specific country).

Advanced artillery, such as allowing art to increase attack values on 2 inf vs one, or mobile infantry (increasing inf movement), or increased IC production by 2 units, are benefits from tech that are not overpowered. Also, ANY country can benefit AND the tech is not disporoprtionally powerful in the hands of one country.

Tech should not be useless. But they should not be a “win”. Otherwise, just have 20 techs. Roll a d20. If you roll a 20, you get nukes. you win. How boring.

Your strategy should determine the outcome more than tech rolls. However, HB usually makes much more of a difference.

As to the point about Bombers being effective even w/o being HB, this too is a concern. Again, LHTR limited bombing damage by 1 country. Now, its back to USA being able to take Germany out by 20 every turn.

And, BTW, even through ALL of the bombing the allies did, Germany was STILL able to manufacture tanks, planes, munitions etc. It is not historically accurate (not to mention fun) for one person to bomb the other player’s IPC into submission. You cannot take away all of the production of a WHOLE COUNTRY just by bombing. It doesnt work that way.

Its also dumb that 6 fighters would stand by and let the IPC be bombed without scrambling and attempting to shoot down the bombers. But because there is no CAP, this situation is again facing us….

[03321]

@squirecam:

Techs, therefore, should be equally good. (or, therefore, equally bad). But more than, that, they should provide a specific benefit that is NOT overpowering. (Nor overpowered in the hands of a specific country).

Each tech should be useful to most if not all players, while not overpowered.  But they don’t have to be equally good, especially when they are randomly rolled for.  I tend to think that the US will not have heavy bombers very often because of the hopeful need for a pacific navy combined with the randomness of obtaining it.

@squirecam:

As to the point about Bombers being effective even w/o being HB, this too is a concern. Again, LHTR limited bombing damage by 1 country. Now, its back to USA being able to take Germany out by 20 every turn.

And, BTW, even through ALL of the bombing the allies did, Germany was STILL able to manufacture tanks, planes, munitions etc. It is not historically accurate (not to mention fun) for one person to bomb the other player’s IPC into submission. You cannot take away all of the production of a WHOLE COUNTRY just by bombing. It doesnt work that way.

Germany has the option of only restoring 15 of the 20 damage done, and producing 5 units that turn, or other such combinations, meaning successive bombing runs won’t be doing 20 IPCs-worth of damage each turn.  If Germany wants to buy fighters (part of your historical example) they need even less production capacity.

@squirecam:

Its also dumb that 6 fighters would stand by and let the IPC be bombed without scrambling and attempting to shoot down the bombers. But because there is no CAP, this situation is again facing us….

I agree with this.

[Imperious Leader]

I thought the AA50 had the same rules from AAE where the fighters could dogfight 1 round before SBR got dropped.

It makes no sence to me considering the effects of SBR to NOT have this. Another house rule coming.

[Greand Stone]

The big difference now is that now all techs will be used. Earlier most of them never saw any action, cuz almost none of them was worth the 30Ipc needed to get them.

The difference now is that yes, USA can invest a lot more into tech. But now most contries can definitivly benefit for atleast setting 5Ipc into it at the start.

Lets say USA invest 10IPC every turn, while germany spends 10IPC only when they dont have 2 scientists. In turn 6, USA will in average have 3 technologies paying 60 IPC. Germany would have in average 2 technologies paying only 30IPC for those 2. USA pays a lot for the one extra technology they have. And even if you only pay 5IPC, you will in average have 1 technology at turn 6.

The system of getting technologies is a lot better, and now you could actually use them. Earlier I only saw Germany wanting rockets and USA getting HB. I never saw any other technology in action. Which is a great shame.

I agree that Mech. Inf. and heavy artellery are two very good technologies, which everybody can get some benefit from. What I fear is that too many would be too specilized.

[Krieghund]

You make some good points, Squirecam.  However, at this point I must return to the idea that speculation about game balance is purely theoretical at this stage.  I would also like to point out that my posts concerning the Heavy Bombers tech in this thread are purely my own opinions and should in no way be considered “official”.

[squirecam]

@Krieghund:

You make some good points, Squirecam.  However, at this point I must return to the idea that speculation about game balance is purely theoretical at this stage.  I would also like to point out that my posts concerning the Heavy Bombers tech in this thread are purely my own opinions and should in no way be considered “official”.

In many instances, yes. Not this one.

I will again repeat what I said the second the article on tech came out on the old AH forums. AAR OOB HB were overpowered. You obviously agree with that opinion.

Yet the game did not have to have been released for both you and I to recognize this mistake.

I knew it before I played. So did you.

Just like I know it now. I have played A&A for 20+. I have a pretty good idea on what rules are overpowering and what isnt. And that experience has taught me HB are overpowered in the hands of USA if not given the LHTR treatment.

[squirecam]

@Craig:

The HBs as listed borders (if not actually goes back over the edge) on gamebreaking.  That is not the HBs that I signed off on.

Then we have 2 options.

Introduce LHTR HB rules for AAAv (and limit the amount of IPC that can be bombed), or have a CAP rule.

Either will suffice.

[Krieghund]

Time for a tidbit of information:

Mechanized infantry- tanks may now carry 1 inf each 2 areas.

This tech is absolutely correct.  Each infantry that is matched up with a tank can move two spaces along with that tank.

[Romulus]

So LHTR has been ignored. Interesting, a set of rule developed with a common effort by players, tournament organizers and Larry Harris ignored…

Cui prodest? Who gain from this?

[squirecam]

@Craig:

@squirecam:

@Craig:

The HBs as listed borders (if not actually goes back over the edge) on gamebreaking.  That is not the HBs that I signed off on.

Then we have 2 options.

Introduce LHTR HB rules for AAAv (and limit the amount of IPC that can be bombed), or have a CAP rule.

Either will suffice.

This is why I fought so hard during the process, so that we wouldn’t have to do this now. :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

After the Revised OotB debacle, the development of the LHTR was a template for how it should be done.  As such, it was the basis for moving forward.

It was changed/ignored by those who think they know better. :roll:

Now they will reap what they have sown.  :-(

Craig

Well, we can either fix it, or let it remain unfixed. Which would you prefer?

Personally, I’d rather things get fixed. So if a new LHTR is needed, so be it.

Besides, with all due respect, playtest groups were not going to find/fix everything. Once the game got out to the public, there would be tweaks needed based upon things playtesters never saw. There was always going to be a need for LHTR AAAv. It just will be “bigger” now. :-D