The fact is, the UK bomber is extremely valuable in the first 2 to 4 rounds. However, once the UK infantry in Africa and Asia are gone, it’s value rapidly diminishes and it becomes nothing more than a poorly defending, long range fighter. On the other hand, the Russian fighters retain their high value throughout the entire game and I’d much rather let the UK bomber be destroyed than have to replace a destroyed Russian fighter.
TY U-505. this was a point i tried to make earlier. Its marginally debatable whether the UK bomber or russian fighter is more valuble EARLY ON, although I still claim its an easy nod to the russian figther. But as far as later rounds, when japan threatens Moscow as well as the germans, and the uk bomber is running out of useful missions, and usually is regulated to SBRs, there is no comparison to value!!!
U-505 and AxisOfEvil Karma +1 for both of you.
I agree qwith and, furthermore, your arguments are well presented than mine!
U-505 and AxisOfEvil Karma +1 for both of you.
I agree qwith and, furthermore, your arguments are well presented than mine!
Right back at you. And I’m going to have to give AOE good karma just because after 49 posts he’s already accumulated -8. He’s rubbing somebody the wrong way. :lol:
@Cmdr:
I dunno about it being a rarity. Generally I only have the one fighter in Libya because my bid went to Libya and I kept the bomber for something else.
But yes, there is a good possibility of 1 fighter, 1 bomber in Libya or even 2 Fighters, Bomber in Libya. In which case, the risk to the English bomber is significant and I would use the British bomber for another action. (Clearing SZ 5 maybe, or just flying it to Novosibirsk to attack Japan if the opportunity presented.)
Romulus makes a very good point about the value of the UK bomber. If it is so valuable, why expose it to so much risk. The sz 5 attack for example. There is a 1 in 4 chance the bomber is lost in that attack. 1 in 6 it is lost in a SBR. Would you attack sz5 or SBR berlin with the russian fighter? no way, wouldnt even conceive of it would you? That in itself suggest the russian fighter is more valuable.
Actually, in the SZ 5 attack there is a 0% chance of losing the bomber.
Specifically because the Germans only have two shots that can hit the planes and you have 2 fighters and a bomber. As long as you do not continue into a second round, then you have nothing to worry about there.
The Russian fighter, on the other hand, cannot SBR. However, if I had 2 Russian Fighters and a Russian submarine, I just might attack SZ 5 with them. Then again, I’ve also been known to build Artillery, 2 Fighters on Russia 1 giving me 4 fighters to use.
Also, the Russian fighters can be lost without a huge loss because British and American fighters can be brought in to assist with the defense of Moscow (and usually are.) By then you should have Americans and Britains assisting with liberating Russian lands, at least if all goes according to plan.
But I can agree that by about turn 5 the UK Bomber has lost most of it’s usefulness. By that point, Africa has been taken by America, England has a force going into Karelia by either Norway or direct from SZ 5/4 and Russia’s turned her attention to fighting the Japanese. By then, the bomber is most likely an added threat to landings in Germany/W. Europe and to bomb Japanese production and less of a vital piece of equipment.
However, by then, the Russian fighters are likewise pretty useless since the Americans and Britains are doing the lion’s share of attacking and Russia’s just trying to hold on to a few pieces of key realestate.
U-505 and AxisOfEvil Karma +1 for both of you.
I agree qwith and, furthermore, your arguments are well presented than mine!
Right back at you. And I’m going to have to give AOE good karma just because after 49 posts he’s already accumulated -8. He’s rubbing somebody the wrong way. :lol:
Yeah, I just saw this. I dont know where I accumulated this negative karma from. Doesnt concern me much, unless it is a part of my background check for loans or something!!! Its kind of useless caring about karma, unless someone lets you know they gave you a hit to your karma for a specific reason.
@Cmdr:
Actually, in the SZ 5 attack there is a 0% chance of losing the bomber.
Specifically because the Germans only have two shots that can hit the planes and you have 2 fighters and a bomber. As long as you do not continue into a second round, then you have nothing to worry about there.
This I agree with.
The bomber is rarely, if ever, at risk in sz5. If the odds are in favor of the UK, they press the attack. If not, they retreat.
@Cmdr:
Also, the Russian fighters can be lost without a huge loss because British and American fighters can be brought in to assist with the defense of Moscow (and usually are.) By then you should have Americans and Britains assisting with liberating Russian lands, at least if all goes according to plan.
However, by then, the Russian fighters are likewise pretty useless since the Americans and Britains are doing the lion’s share of attacking and Russia’s just trying to hold on to a few pieces of key realestate.
This I disagree with.
Russia needs the fighters to trade Belo and Ukraine if they can because the other Allies taking them won’t give Russia any income.
Also, the other Allies usually don’t have a great deal of units to help Russia on it’s Eastern front so when the UK/US begin to take Russia’s place holding back Germany, then those fighters end up trading territories with Japan.
Lastly, Japan almost always gets to Persia in force before the US does so the Russian fighters are usually tasked with trading Persia until the US can get big reinforcements in there. All it takes is one round of letting Japan control Persia without trading and you could end up seeing a massive ground unit stack backed up by 5 or 6 Japanese fighters and AA there and then Russia is in trouble.
Generally, Russia has more territories to trade than it does fighters to do the trading. Buying more fighters can be a hard investment to swallow so having to kick in 10 IPC’s to REPLACE a lost one is just bad juju.
Yeah, I just saw this. I dont know where I accumulated this negative karma from. Doesnt concern me much, unless it is a part of my background check for loans or something!!! Its kind of useless caring about karma, unless someone lets you know they gave you a hit to your karma for a specific reason.
I know. But, since I play here regularly, it can be a barometer of how my opponents and the general public view me and can therefore be a factor in whether a prospective opponent wants to deal with my drama or not :-D. For the discussion forums it’s pretty meaningless.
Yeah, I just saw this. I dont know where I accumulated this negative karma from. Doesnt concern me much, unless it is a part of my background check for loans or something!!! Its kind of useless caring about karma, unless someone lets you know they gave you a hit to your karma for a specific reason.
I know. But, since I play here regularly, it can be a barometer of how my opponents and the general public view me and can therefore be a factor in whether a prospective opponent wants to deal with my drama or not :-D. For the discussion forums it’s pretty meaningless.
well then, your approval rating is quite good. I seem to ahve some george Bush numbers here :-o
maybe i should stop posting, as it may hurt my chances of playing the game!!! I could be on a black list as we speak!! Damn you McCarthy!!! Im no red!!
well then, your approval rating is quite good. I seem to ahve some george Bush numbers here :-o
No…
THESE
<----------
are George Bush numbers :roll:
@ncscswitch:
well then, your approval rating is quite good. I seem to ahve some george Bush numbers here :-o
No…
THESE
<----------
are George Bush numbers :roll:
Pretty political statement there. I’d ask if you’d not bring politics into a game discussion before a moderator stops by to lock it.
As I said, Russian fighters are not worthless. It is my opinion that the British Bomber, at least in the beginning of the game, is more important than Russia losing ONE (1), note I said ONE, UNO and no more, fighter.
As for later in the game, say around round 6-10, it may be a completely different scenario. I can only really justify evaluations on specific pieces of equipment in the first few rounds given how widely the dice can throw a game. After all, how valuable is the British bomber if it is the only piece England has and England has no territories? Again, just how valuable are the Russian fighters if Russia owns Manchuria, Kwangtung and French Indo-China while the allies (that is the other two) own W. Europe, S. Europe, E. Europe and Balkans?
@Cmdr:
As I said, Russian fighters are not worthless. It is my opinion that the British Bomber, at least in the beginning of the game, is more important than Russia losing ONE (1), note I said ONE, UNO and no more, fighter.
As for later in the game, say around round 6-10, it may be a completely different scenario. I can only really justify evaluations on specific pieces of equipment in the first few rounds given how widely the dice can throw a game. After all, how valuable is the British bomber if it is the only piece England has and England has no territories? Again, just how valuable are the Russian fighters if Russia owns Manchuria, Kwangtung and French Indo-China while the allies (that is the other two) own W. Europe, S. Europe, E. Europe and Balkans?
Sounds like Jen is playing centerfield with all that back peddling….
@Cmdr:
As I said, Russian fighters are not worthless. It is my opinion that the British Bomber, at least in the beginning of the game, is more important than Russia losing ONE (1), note I said ONE, UNO and no more, fighter.
As for later in the game, say around round 6-10, it may be a completely different scenario. I can only really justify evaluations on specific pieces of equipment in the first few rounds given how widely the dice can throw a game. After all, how valuable is the British bomber if it is the only piece England has and England has no territories? Again, just how valuable are the Russian fighters if Russia owns Manchuria, Kwangtung and French Indo-China while the allies (that is the other two) own W. Europe, S. Europe, E. Europe and Balkans?
Sounds like Jen is playing centerfield with all that back peddling….
I have not back peddled. I never once stated that Russian fighters are worthless. I only stated that I felt the British Bomber was worth more than the Russian Fighters and I laid out my rationale to support it.
No one can tell you what would be valuable 6 rounds into the game because the game is completely different at that point anyway. If Moscow has fallen, those Russian fighters are probably pretty useless. If Germany has fallen, what in the world are you going to do with that German submarine in SZ 5?
@Cmdr:
No one can tell you what would be valuable 6 rounds into the game because the game is completely different at that point anyway. If Moscow has fallen, those Russian fighters are probably pretty useless.
No, but I WILL tell you that I think sacrificing the Russian fighters at the expense of saving the UK bomber makes it more likely I will see Moscow fall by turn 6. So I guess in that sense you’re right in a self-fullfilling-prophecy sort of way. ;)
@Cmdr:
No one can tell you what would be valuable 6 rounds into the game because the game is completely different at that point anyway. If Moscow has fallen, those Russian fighters are probably pretty useless.
No, but I WILL tell you that I think sacrificing the Russian fighters at the expense of saving the UK bomber makes it more likely I will see Moscow fall by turn 6. So I guess in that sense you’re right in a self-fullfilling-prophecy sort of way. ;)
It depends on what I sacrificed the Russian fighter for. To be honest, I’d rather not lose the bomber OR the Russian fighters. In any event, I am talking about a single, SOLITARY piece. The two Russian fighters are two pieces, not one piece like the British bomber. If we want to start making examples like that, then I could say losing the two Japanese carriers and two Japanese battleships are worse than losing the British bomber. Hell, you add enough units to the stack you want to trade, eventually you’ll out value that solitary British bomber!
Odds are England will be the one doing the attack on Berlin before Russia. Odds are Russia will be defending against Japan while this attack is set up and executed.
Do Russian fighters defend any better than American fighters? No.
Does the British Bomber attack any better than American or Russian Fighters on England’s turn? Yes. Infinitely so. (Russian and American fighters cannot attack on England’s turn.)
Since England is attacking Germany, it stands to reason the bomber is more valuable to them than a (singular) Russian fighter is to defending Moscow (since America can, and probably does, have 3 or 4 fighters there to defend anyway.)
Top it off with the fact that Russia’s going to have plenty of opportunities to compliment their fighters with a 3rd or even 4th fighter while England will most likely complete the game without buying a second bomber - even to replace the original if it gets lost, and you can easily see how that bomber is more valuable than a single, solitary, Russian fighter.
@Cmdr:
I have not back peddled. I never once stated that Russian fighters are worthless. I only stated that I felt the British Bomber was worth more than the Russian Fighters and I laid out my rationale to support it.
No one can tell you what would be valuable 6 rounds into the game because the game is completely different at that point anyway. If Moscow has fallen, those Russian fighters are probably pretty useless. If Germany has fallen, what in the world are you going to do with that German submarine in SZ 5?
OK, call it what you want: You certainly did TOTALLY qualify some very specific instances of WHEN the UK bomber was ‘the most important piece’ in the game.
AND it was early and not for a very long time in the typical game that lasts 14+ rounds.
Your other argument about the value of pieces changing when a capital falls looks like you’re merely reaching for straws to throw back into the argument fray. I would say that ALMOST beneath you….
We can argue all day long, and you can back peddle or cover your tracks or further qualify your opinion (whatever you want to call it :roll:), maid of the “IMHO”, but I will put it to a vote and we’ll let the forum quarum decide. Expect a poll soon. :mrgreen:
Russia ftrs versus UK bomber.
No, I stipulated some examples of how I would use it.
SZ 5 someone said was an undue risk to the bomber. As I pointed out, there is no risk to the bomber in SZ 5 - you just retreat before the enemy even has a chance to hit it.
Egypt is not a risk to the bomber, if Germany does not have anything strong enough to hit it.
Perhaps you are attributing statements that other people have made to me?
Anyway, everyone knows that pieces change value based on position on the board, not just of that piece, but also of the country and it’s allies. It’s not my fault you want to lock everything into a pigeon hole.
Also, I never said the bomber was more important than BOTH FRAKKING RUSSIAN FIGHTERS. Stop attempting to say I did. I said it was more important than ONE RUSSIAN FIGHTER.
So you are telling me, that if I kill ONE OF YOUR RUSSIAN FIGHTERS, you will immediately capitulate and declare that I won the game? Zarky! (Hey, you’re basically making the same wild claims about what I said, let’s see how you deal with wild exaggerations for a while.)
@Cmdr:
Anyway, everyone knows that pieces change value based on position on the board, not just of that piece, but also of the country and it’s allies. It’s not my fault you want to lock everything into a pigeon hole.
Personally, All I ever posted was that the two russian ftrs are more important than the UK bomber. Nothing more, nothing less. Others made arguements for and against your postion versus mine. You were the one who starting to qualify / defend your position.
@Cmdr:
Also, I never said the bomber was more important than BOTH FRAKKING RUSSIAN FIGHTERS. Stop attempting to say I did. I said it was more important than ONE RUSSIAN FIGHTER.
I Never said you said anything. I said it.
@Cmdr:
So you are telling me, that if I kill ONE OF YOUR RUSSIAN FIGHTERS, you will immediately capitulate and declare that I won the game? Zarky! (Hey, you’re basically making the same wild claims about what I said, let’s see how you deal with wild exaggerations for a while.)
You are quite looney. I never made any wild claims. You were the one who continuously modified your general statement of the UK bomber being the most important piece to a qualified one (OK, the UK bomber is only the most important piece for the first four rounds, or when I can do SBRs or when I can counter AES….)
You know, YOU are the main reason I do not post on many threads anymore. You have to post your opinion post in every FRAKKEN thread.
No one likes a know-it all. Especially one as relentless as you can be.
And the “IMHO” in most of your recent posts doesn’t really change the above two observations.
So if someone kills the UK Bomber, the most valuable pieces on the board UK do not surrender?
No, but also, you don’t surrender only because you lost the soviet figs :-D
Elemntary, Funcioneta. Just joking.
