2nd Edition Classic A&A Dizz (Allies) vs Aces (Axis) game 1 -- no bid

[The_Good_Captain]

@DizzKneeLand33 understood

[The_Good_Captain]

TripleA Turn Summary: Japanese round 11

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Classic, version: 2.0

Game History

Round: 11

    Purchase Units - Japanese
        Japanese buy 4 armour, 4 infantry and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 5 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Japanese
        3 bombers moved from Novosibirsk to Russia
        6 fighters moved from Novosibirsk to Russia
        22 infantry moved from Novosibirsk to Russia
        1 infantry moved from Evenki National Okrug to Russia
        1 infantry moved from Kazakh S.S.R. to Russia
        18 armour moved from Novosibirsk to Russia
        2 fighters moved from Manchuria to Russia
        2 bombers moved from India to Russia
        1 transport moved from Black Sea Zone to East Mediteranean Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Anglo Sudan Egypt to East Mediteranean Sea Zone
        1 infantry and 1 transport moved from East Mediteranean Sea Zone to Black Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Black Sea Zone to Caucasus
              Japanese take Caucasus from Russians

    Combat - Japanese
        Battle in Russia
            Japanese attack with 18 armour, 5 bombers, 8 fighters and 24 infantry
            British defend with 2 armour, 1 fighter and 12 infantry; Americans defend with 1 fighter; Russians defend with 1 aaGun, 2 armour, 1 factory, 1 fighter and 33 infantry
                AA fire in Russia : 1/13 hits, 2.17 expected hits
                1 fighter owned by the Japanese lost in Russia
                Japanese roll dice for 18 armour, 5 bombers, 7 fighters and 24 infantry in Russia, round 2 : 26/54 hits, 19.83 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 4 armour, 3 fighters and 45 infantry in Russia, round 2 : 19/52 hits, 18.33 expected hits
                19 infantry owned by the Japanese, 14 infantry owned by the Russians and 12 infantry owned by the British lost in Russia
                Japanese roll dice for 18 armour, 5 bombers, 7 fighters and 5 infantry in Russia, round 3 : 15/35 hits, 16.67 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 4 armour, 3 fighters and 19 infantry in Russia, round 3 : 10/26 hits, 9.67 expected hits
                5 infantry owned by the Japanese, 15 infantry owned by the Russians and 5 armour owned by the Japanese lost in Russia
                Japanese roll dice for 13 armour, 5 bombers and 7 fighters in Russia, round 4 : 12/25 hits, 13.33 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 4 armour, 3 fighters and 4 infantry in Russia, round 4 : 2/11 hits, 4.67 expected hits
                4 infantry owned by the Russians, 1 fighter owned by the Russians, 2 armour owned by the Russians, 2 armour owned by the Japanese, 1 fighter owned by the Americans, 1 fighter owned by the British and 2 armour owned by the British lost in Russia
            Japanese captures 19PUs while taking Russians capital
            Japanese win, taking Russia from Russians with 11 armour, 5 bombers and 7 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 72
            Casualties for Japanese: 7 armour, 1 fighter and 24 infantry
            Casualties for British: 2 armour, 1 fighter and 12 infantry
            Casualties for Russians: 2 armour, 1 fighter and 33 infantry
            Casualties for Americans: 1 fighter

    Non Combat Move - Japanese
        1 infantry moved from Mexico to Mexico Sea Zone
        1 infantry and 1 transport moved from Mexico Sea Zone to Wake Island Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Russia to Kazakh S.S.R.
        1 bomber moved from Russia to Kazakh S.S.R.
        4 bombers moved from Russia to Kazakh S.S.R.
        1 aaGun moved from Novosibirsk to Kazakh S.S.R.
        2 carriers moved from Black Sea Zone to Central Mediteranean Sea Zone
        2 battleships moved from Black Sea Zone to Central Mediteranean Sea Zone
        2 transports moved from Black Sea Zone to Central Mediteranean Sea Zone
        2 submarines moved from Black Sea Zone to Central Mediteranean Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Wake Island Sea Zone to Wake Island
        1 transport moved from Red Sea Zone to Indian Ocean Sea Zone
        1 transport moved from Red Sea Zone to Indian Ocean Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Anglo Sudan Egypt to Italian East Africa
        4 fighters moved from Russia to Central Mediteranean Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Russia to Kazakh S.S.R.
        1 fighter moved from Kazakh S.S.R. to Syria Jordan
        1 fighter moved from Kazakh S.S.R. to Syria Jordan
        1 fighter moved from Russia to Kazakh S.S.R.

    Place Units - Japanese
        1 armour and 2 infantry placed in India
        3 armour placed in Manchuria
        2 transports placed in Japan Sea Zone
        2 infantry placed in Japan

    Turn Complete - Japanese
        Japanese collect 68 PUs; end with 92 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

AA fire in Russia : : -1.17
Russians : -1.67
Japanese : 3.17

Savegame

[DizzKneeLand33]

TripleA Turn Summary: Americans round 11

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Classic, version: 2.0

Game History

Round: 11

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 13 armour and 1 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Americans
        2 infantry moved from Panama to Mexico
              Americans take Mexico from Japanese
        1 bomber moved from Algeria to Anglo Sudan Egypt
        2 fighters moved from West Spain Sea Zone to Anglo Sudan Egypt

    Combat - Americans
        Battle in Anglo Sudan Egypt
            Americans attack with 1 bomber and 2 fighters
            Germans defend with 1 fighter; Japanese defend with 1 factory
                Americans roll dice for 1 bomber and 2 fighters in Anglo Sudan Egypt, round 2 : 2/3 hits, 1.67 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 1 fighter in Anglo Sudan Egypt, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                1 fighter owned by the Germans lost in Anglo Sudan Egypt
            Americans win with 1 bomber and 2 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 12
            Casualties for Germans: 1 fighter

    Non Combat Move - Americans
        1 bomber moved from Anglo Sudan Egypt to French Equatorial Africa
        2 fighters moved from Anglo Sudan Egypt to French Equatorial Africa
        19 armour and 34 infantry moved from Germany to East Europe
        6 infantry moved from South Europe to East Europe
        6 infantry moved from West Europe to South Europe
        1 battleship, 1 submarine and 2 transports moved from Carribean Sea Zone to Mexico Sea Zone
        1 transport moved from West Spain Sea Zone to West Mediteranean Sea Zone

    Place Units - Americans
        4 armour placed in South Europe
        9 armour and 1 infantry placed in Germany

    Turn Complete - Americans
        Americans collect 54 PUs; end with 54 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans : 0.33
Japanese : -0.67

Savegame

[DizzKneeLand33]

TripleA Turn Summary: British round 12

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Classic, version: 2.0

Game History

Round: 12

    Purchase Units - British
        British buy 2 armour and 3 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - British
        3 infantry moved from Karelia S.S.R. to Caucasus
        1 infantry moved from Congo to Kenya-Rhodesia
              British take Kenya-Rhodesia from Japanese
        1 infantry moved from Libya to Anglo Sudan Egypt
              British take Anglo Sudan Egypt from Japanese

    Combat - British
        Battle in Caucasus
            British attack with 3 infantry
            Japanese defend with 1 infantry
                British roll dice for 3 infantry in Caucasus, round 2 : 0/3 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 1 infantry in Caucasus, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the British lost in Caucasus
                British roll dice for 2 infantry in Caucasus, round 3 : 1/2 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 1 infantry in Caucasus, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Japanese lost in Caucasus
            British win, taking Caucasus from Japanese with 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
            Casualties for British: 1 infantry
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry

    Non Combat Move - British
        7 infantry moved from French Equatorial Africa to Anglo Sudan Egypt
        1 armour moved from French Equatorial Africa to Anglo Sudan Egypt
        2 armour moved from Algeria to Anglo Sudan Egypt
        2 infantry moved from Algeria to French Equatorial Africa
        4 transports moved from West Spain Sea Zone to North Sea Zone
        3 armour and 1 infantry moved from United Kingdom to North Sea Zone
        3 armour, 1 infantry and 4 transports moved from North Sea Zone to West Spain Sea Zone
        3 armour and 1 infantry moved from West Spain Sea Zone to Algeria

    Place Units - British
        2 armour and 3 infantry placed in United Kingdom

    Turn Complete - British
        British collect 25 PUs; end with 25 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

British : 0.17
Japanese : 0.33

Savegame

[The_Good_Captain]

@DizzKneeLand33

I’ll concede here. The catastrophic losses throughout the game to my aircraft from low odds events notwithstanding, this was an excellent game. And thank you very much for it. If you’re up for it, and especially if you think the axis are still disadvantaged with it, would you like to rematch with the Russia restricted rule added in, no bid?

[DizzKneeLand33]

Sure, that sounds fun. I think there were a lot of low odds events in that game, but I have never been a believer in SBR’s other than if there is a defined plan (short term because a capital attack is inevitable), mainly because when you do the math it is hard to show them paying off. But that’s just my opinion, others have different ones.

I don’t want to lose a bomber on an SBR for a measely 3.5 ipc average gain. Now, if it’s a heavy bomber, that’s different. :)

With Russia Restricted, it is closer to even than the non RR rules (I would usually take a bid of 9 for Axis, and even 8 and 6 are possible). I play a pretty nonconventional strat as Allies so it will be fun.

I would even be willing to play a pair of games (one with each side) if you would like – would you be willing to play with a bid of 2 or 3 infantry in Libya in each game? That really evens it up. I know that you are focused on the actual OOB game, but that works much better from a competitive standpoint.

The other thing that works better is 3rd edition, which has 2 hit BB’s and stuff, but we don’t have to go that far if you don’t want. ;)

[The_Good_Captain]

@DizzKneeLand33

About the SBRs, thats interesting. The math is fairly straight forward. Out of six raids, you lose one bomber at 15 IPC. Throwing 5 dice from the survivors should then net 16 or 17 IPCs destroyed. Otherwise, yes, the shape of the “bell” of this bell curve is fairly pronounced and can swing either way very, very easily…

I believe this was a contributing factor to the axis loss. If it had gone the other way and the initial bombers had been able to pull off more than “0” and “1” raids before being destroyed, I’m not sure the outcome would have been so certain. This is, of course, in my experience.

And of course there is more than one way to “skin” the proverbial Allied “cat.”

I also find it encouraging that you feel the bid is so much lower with Russia restricted. I wonder what you think the bid should be with the Axis technology boost added in?

[DizzKneeLand33]

@AcesWild5049 said in 2nd Edition Classic A&A Dizz (Allies) vs Aces (Axis) game 1 -- no bid:

@DizzKneeLand33

About the SBRs, thats interesting. The math is fairly straight forward. Out of six raids, you lose one bomber at 15 IPC. Throwing 5 dice from the survivors should then net 16 or 17 IPCs destroyed. Otherwise, yes, the shape of the “bell” of this bell curve is fairly pronounced and can swing either way very, very easily…

I believe this was a contributing factor to the axis loss. If it had gone the other way and the initial bombers had been able to pull off more than “0” and “1” raids before being destroyed, I’m not sure the outcome would have been so certain. This is, of course, in my experience.

And of course there is more than one way to “skin” the proverbial Allied “cat.”

I also find it encouraging that you feel the bid is so much lower with Russia restricted. I wonder what you think the bid should be with the Axis technology boost added in?

The bell curve is interesting, and, yes, you may net one or two extra IPC’s. But, what is lost in that is the opportunity cost. Not only the opportunity of the bomber doing something more productive, but the fact that a lost bomber means less threat projection across the board. When you lost the German bomber, that meant that the Allied fleet could split up at will. With the German bomber there, this was not possible (especially early on). The German bomber may just be the most precious piece on the starting board, use it wisely. ;)

I’m not sure about Axis Advantage with regard to bid. I will say that my best experience was 3rd edition RR games using Utah rules (no tech rolling until turn 4). Axis wins with 84 ipcs, Allies with 110.

Axis Advantage would lessen the bid, but then it’s hard to tell in a tech game – Axis have already thrown out the worst tech result for Japan (Subs). With no tech it was called “Anzio” online and I think that the bids may have been around 3 to 6 for that (but was that what the best players would bid? not sure, I was never that good at Anzio).

Tech (the threat thereof) allows the Axis to play out of a slightly inferior position. Most good Axis players will have to tech at some point against good Allied play.

[DizzKneeLand33]

Losing the German bomber is why I never hit the Lab trannie turn one unless it is with two pieces. You attacked it with a fighter, which was slightly worse odds. The lab trannie always hits, no matter what. :P

[The_Good_Captain]

@DizzKneeLand33

My only additional comment to the above is that I agree that bombers should no do SBR if there is some other viable attack that needs support. I don’t like letting them sit idle against good allied play. I wasn’t worried about your transports flying around the board unchecked as you had demonstrated a singular strategy and I was convinced you wouldn’t deviate from it by the time I send the bombers to Moscow.

One of my main goals is to take down the “Don’s Essays” strategy and to that end I’m happy to see that you did not follow almost any of that silly script that offers itself up as the “be all end all” to AnA classic.

Gimmie a week and then well fire up the next game if that’s alright with you? If you clobber me in that I will concede that the axis, at the very least, need the Russia restricted option to have a steady, competitive game.

[DizzKneeLand33]

Sure that sounds cool to me – I look forward to it!

I remember reading those essays in, it seems like, the mid 90’s? Once you get yours all done I’ll watch some more, I think I’ve seen the first 3 so far. :)

[Avin]

It looks like you’ve got the next game scheduled, but just dropping a note to say that I’d love a shot at AcesWild myself! I enjoyed following this one and I’ll be interested in following the next one as well.

[The_Good_Captain]

@DizzKneeLand33 said in 2nd Edition Classic A&A Dizz (Allies) vs Aces (Axis) game 1 -- no bid:

Sure that sounds cool to me – I look forward to it!

I remember reading those essays in, it seems like, the mid 90’s? Once you get yours all done I’ll watch some more, I think I’ve seen the first 3 so far. :)

They were initially released in 1998 but refined and updated through 2002 (around the release of the first AnA Europe/Pacific). Perusing the forum last year, all I found was cries of anguish and pain in regards to the Axis’s chances in the oob rules/setup with several references to these essays.

If there was further development of strategy, I haven’t found it. Another goal of mine is to remedy that through the videos I’m making. At this point I’m excited to produce videos along a developmental theme.

[The_Good_Captain]

@Avin said in 2nd Edition Classic A&A Dizz (Allies) vs Aces (Axis) game 1 -- no bid:

It looks like you’ve got the next game scheduled, but just dropping a note to say that I’d love a shot at AcesWild myself! I enjoyed following this one and I’ll be interested in following the next one as well.

Yes, I am very much looking forward to our game! Give me a few weeks and we can def throw down. I have so many AnA projects going on right now its crazy. I appreciate your participation for sure though.