LL Challenge

[Jennifer]

Yea, LL really speeds up games.  By turn 5 I have Russians in Berlin.

Anyway, the point is that LL and ADS are not the same game anymore.  One’s a game of formulas, the other is a game probabilities and chance.

[HolKann]

Owkey, since I think most of you guys live on the other end of the world making it difficult to have a real discussion responding to each other, I’ve made a little list of what I read so far in this topic, and I’ll comment on each a bit:

arguments con:

LL is a formula, ADS a strategy
LL makes strategies feasible that aren’t going to make it in AdS
LL makes strategies that are 50% in ADS 100% in LL
=> comment: Let’s make a difference between tactical TRICKS and strategical PLANNINGS. The 3 sentences above are talking about tactics: if I attack his 14 inf or go Sea Lion… I admit that tactics are different (not a lot, but enough to matter) in LL than in ADS. That’s just thinking a bit more radical in LL games than ADS games. But if we’re talking about strategies, both ADS and LL are the same: G’s strategy is to build up stacks of arm+inf on the eastern borders to eventually try to attack Mos,  J is pushing inland to raise pressure on R, UK and US are both trying to land units in Asia/Europe to relief pressure on R. Strategies are long-term plans and don’t differ between LL/ADS. Tactics are tricks of the moment that have to be avoided or executed in order to get an edge. Tactics do differ from LL to ADS. If that’s good or bad, I don’t know.

LL SBR’s are always good
=> Since one cann’t loose it’s bomber, it’s always a good idea to go SBR in LL. True. As, theoretically, it’s always a good idea to go SBR in ADS. However, the difference between throwing a 1 and not throwing a 1 is 18,5 Ipc’s, just for one die. I think this is ridiculous and can ruin a game. SBR is broken in ADS: imagine an oppo who goes heavy on SBR, and succeeds a lot because of good dice, so you get IPC crippled and loose the game. There’s nothing one can do against this strat, except hoping for good dice. This is not the kind of game I like to play, because it’s nothing else than roullette if played this way. That’s the flaw in ADS: mediocre or bad strategies are possible when backed up by good dice. This happens not a lot, but enough to either think you won undeserved (=not good), or you lost undeserved (=not good). If half of the games one plays are not good, I don’t like the game. LL fixes this.

LL is easier and requires less skill
LL is ‘calculable’
=> True, LL is calculable (in the sense of more predictable), and requires less ADS-skill (calculating chances). But it requires more LL-skill (planning, looking ahead). I don’t think Chess players will agree chess (=LL) requires less skill than warhammer 40K (=ADS). It just requires a different skill.

Axis cann’t realistically win in a LL game without vastly inflating the bid.
I don’t know, I only played one LL game (with allies), and I enjoyed it a lot (and won).

pro:
LL is an easy way to get insight in battle mechanics
LL speeds up games
LL vastly reduces the bad dice syndrome
=> no comments on pro, since I’m on the pro side  :-D

@Cmdr:

A) 10 IPC to the Axis is too high in any game, IMHO.  7-9 is the limit and I only bid 9 when I want to be the allies.

Anyway, the offer still stands.  Battlemap, in house dicey, LL rules (LL for SBR too) and you get 7, maybe 8 IPC. (I’ll entertain 8 IPC if you want a transport in the Med, otherwise you get 7 IPC for ground units or just plain old cash for round 1.)

If 10 is too high, why don’t you wanna play axis then? (this is the whole point of having a bidding system  :| ) But I’m willing to adapt: 9 IPC to axis, from which 7 for ground units, owkey?

Off topic: where do I find more information on that in house dicey thing, and on the LL-rules used in this board?

[Jennifer]

I guess we could do 9 IPC, but then I’d request 50/50 for Germany/Japan break as you want it.

---

SBRs are broken in EVERY game, IMHO.  If Germany and Japan get 6 bombers running, Russia is lost, I don’t care what round Germany was kicked out of Africa.  I’ve found that 6 bombers going after Russia tend to do almost as much damage as Russia earns.  And in tech games, rockets are even better.

However, they are less broke in LL where you take 3 or 4 IPC in damage and do 2 or 3 IPC in damage to the industrial complex per bomber.

[dezrtfish]

@HolKann:

Off topic: where do I find more information on that in house dicey thing, and on the LL-rules used in this board?

In the Play games forum, but here’s a quick lesson:

Type this in to any message box:

(colon)AAA (number of Dice)@(hit Value)(colon)

this is 3 dice hitting on a three:

Rolls: 3@3; Total Hits: 13@3: (4, 2, 6)

[dezrtfish]

I think there’s a test thread some where in the play games forum, btw you can’t edit the results that the first thing most people wonder…

[Funcioneta]

@Cmdr:

I guess we could do 9 IPC, but then I’d request 50/50 for Germany/Japan break as you want it.

---

If Germany and Japan get 6 bombers running, Russia is lost, I don’t care what round Germany was kicked out of Africa.

You start with 2 bombers for axis. If you buy another 4 bombers, it’s 60 ipcs you paid, and you’ll need about 4 turns of SBR for recovering your inversion even if bombers still live. 4 turns more for Russia survive until Western Allies come to the rescue. Even if Japan build all the additional bombers and allies go for KGF. Good news for uncle Joe.

Rockets, however, are another issue. If Germany gets lucky and gets them with only 5 or 10 ipcs… ouch! Soviets are in trouble. This is a reason why games with techs not need so high bids, I think.

[Jennifer]

Talking no tech games, usually.  And in ADS it’s really not too hard to get 6 bombers running for the axis.  I generally do get that many when I don’t have ridiculously bad dice in Round 1. :P

Yes, it’s 60 IPC.  However, we have people on these boards seriously advocating Germany spend at least 60 IPC on fleet for SZ 5.  I fail to see how 60 IPC in bombers is going to hurt. :P  Especially over a couple of rounds.

For arguments sake, Bomber, Fighter, 5 Infantry for Germany round 1, japan no new bombers.  Bomber for Germany in round 3, japan no new bombers until, wild number here, say 5 rounds.  Gotta have enough time to get the complexes running first.

[HolKann]

Owkay, let’s give this a try:
Rolls: 4@3; Total Hits: 24@3: (4, 1, 3, 6)
Great, it works!
But how does one prevent editing?

@Cmdr:

I guess we could do 9 IPC, but then I’d request 50/50 for Germany/Japan break as you want it.

Owkey, I’m gonna try one last time, cuz there’s no way I’m only taking 7 as the axis. I’ll take up the challenge with an 8 IPC bid, of which minimum 1 will go to Japan. If this is too much to prove your point, then so be it :)

[newpaintbrush]

@HolKann:

Owkay, let’s give this a try:
Rolls: 4@3; Total Hits: 24@3: (4, 1, 3, 6)
Great, it works!
But how does one prevent editing?

@Cmdr:

I guess we could do 9 IPC, but then I’d request 50/50 for Germany/Japan break as you want it.

Owkey, I’m gonna try one last time, cuz there’s no way I’m only taking 7 as the axis. I’ll take up the challenge with an 8 IPC bid, of which minimum 1 will go to Japan. If this is too much to prove your point, then so be it :)

On the game forums, you can’t delete or edit your post.  Once you post, THATS IT NO CHANGES, so don’t say lots of funny things you might regret later.

[Jennifer]

@HolKann:

Owkay, let’s give this a try:
Rolls: 4@3; Total Hits: 24@3: (4, 1, 3, 6)
Great, it works!
But how does one prevent editing?

@Cmdr:

I guess we could do 9 IPC, but then I’d request 50/50 for Germany/Japan break as you want it.

Owkey, I’m gonna try one last time, cuz there’s no way I’m only taking 7 as the axis. I’ll take up the challenge with an 8 IPC bid, of which minimum 1 will go to Japan. If this is too much to prove your point, then so be it :)

7 IPC to Germany or Japan and the last IPC to the other nation is fine with me.  I believe you’d want that as 1 IPC Japan, 7 IPC to Germany.

If you let me know what you want to buy with that cash, I’ll start a new thread in the play games area and roll out Russia’s first turn.

[HolKann]

All@Cmdr:

If you let me know what you want to buy with that cash, I’ll start a new thread in the play games area and roll out Russia’s first turn.

All right, m gonna go 1 inf 1 rtl  in Lib, 1 ipc to Jap. Where can I find the reference rules? Are these (http://www.daak.de/lowluck/lowluckregel.php?sprache=e) allright? Anyways, good luck! (though we won’t need that  8-) )

[Enskive]

Bunnies P Wrath to say that LL players have less skill than dice players, is just a stupid comment. Im a LL player so if u want to prove your skill play against me. We play ads ttl no tech 9 bid for axis (placement of 1 unit per area). U can pick side.

Not that it have any meaning in what skill level diffrent dice player have. I will just like to shut u up becasue of that stupid comment.

The game is the same the stragies are the same. The tactic are a bit diffrent. Eksampel if germany have a stack in kar and russia one in west russia and there is 1 german inf in arc. Russian needs to take back arc ore else it must abondon west russia. In LL u can make sure u take arc if u send 1 inf 1 art and a fighter. But usal players will send 2 inf and a fighter which make i almost sure to take it back. In ads u still have to take it but u cant be sure to take it, so the solution can be to send 1 more inf to take it.
The diffrent in ads is u can be sqrew by 1 litle battle. U can make sure u dont in LL. But when that is said u cant afford to be sure to win all battle in LL. Then u use to many icp trading.

another diffrents is the sure strafe. In LL when germany stack kar the allies cant land in norway because it just gonner get strafet so they usal just trade it. In ads the allies can make stronger landings, and germany cant afford to take norway back many times in a row becasue it woud thin out the kar stack, and make it aviable for a russian attack from west russia. And is to risky to starfe becasue u wont like to have all your troops in norway as germany.

This is the 2 biggest diffrents as i see it. Personal i like the LL setup better. I dont think that it take alot of skill to go from the one to the other. So il say that the skill level of players isent diffrent. But in diffrent gaming sites there will be a tendens to favor the one dice over the other. So one site the best players play LL and on another the best play ads. So if u are in a site that mainly play ads, i can understand that u might think that it take more skill to play ads. But it realy isent because the dice dosent matter that much.

When it comes down to it, it just a game play what u like to play. And stop the hate for what u dont like.

on a side note. The thing that i dont like about ads it the russian turn 1, it dosen matter if im axis ore allies. If u cout make russian turn one LL and the rest of the game ads i woud play more ads games. ;)

[newpaintbrush]

@Enskive:

Bunnies P Wrath to say that LL players have less skill than dice players, is just a stupid comment.

**You know, Enskive, I say a lotta outrageous stuff, but I don’t actually recall saying that about LL players - I think I said something about REAL men using REAL dice instead.

But particulars aside.  I’m sure I implied LL players have less skill than dice players at SOME point in my rantings, and yeah, that is pretty stupid.  Hey, I do stupid stuff sometimes.

HolKann wrote a pretty good response to the skill in ADS vs skill in LL question -  I’d have to agree it’s really a relative thing.**

Im a LL player so if u want to prove your skill play against me. We play ads ttl no tech 9 bid for axis (placement of 1 unit per area). U can pick side.

I don’t know what “ttl” means, and I don’t play games without tech.

Not that it have any meaning in what skill level diffrent dice player have. I will just like to shut u up becasue of that stupid comment.

I bet.  But if you think that playing me, win or lose, is going to make me “shut up” you’d better think again.  Lol.

The game is the same the stragies are the same. The tactic are a bit diffrent. Eksampel if germany have a stack in kar and russia one in west russia and there is 1 german inf in arc. Russian needs to take back arc ore else it must abondon west russia. In LL u can make sure u take arc if u send 1 inf 1 art and a fighter. But usal players will send 2 inf and a fighter which make i almost sure to take it back. In ads u still have to take it but u cant be sure to take it, so the solution can be to send 1 more inf to take it.
The diffrent in ads is u can be sqrew by 1 litle battle. U can make sure u dont in LL. But when that is said u cant afford to be sure to win all battle in LL. Then u use to many icp trading.

I’m just going to disagree with both you and DarthMaximus.  You SAY the strategies are the same, I SAY they are not the same.  I have already laid out the reasons why I think this.

another diffrents is the sure strafe. In LL when germany stack kar the allies cant land in norway because it just gonner get strafet so they usal just trade it. In ads the allies can make stronger landings, and germany cant afford to take norway back many times in a row becasue it woud thin out the kar stack, and make it aviable for a russian attack from west russia. And is to risky to starfe becasue u wont like to have all your troops in norway as germany.

At least one thing you left out with this mention of LL is how high-IPC naval/air battles are more predictable.

This is the 2 biggest diffrents as i see it. Personal i like the LL setup better. I dont think that it take alot of skill to go from the one to the other. So il say that the skill level of players isent diffrent. But in diffrent gaming sites there will be a tendens to favor the one dice over the other. So one site the best players play LL and on another the best play ads. So if u are in a site that mainly play ads, i can understand that u might think that it take more skill to play ads. But it realy isent because the dice dosent matter that much.

That’s great, you can go on thinking it doesn’t take a lot of skill to go from one to the other, you can go on saying that the skill level of players isn’t different.  I think you’re wrong in saying that the skills translate from one game to another, again, for reasons I already explained.

When it comes down to it, it just a game play what u like to play. And stop the hate for what u dont like.

Stop hating what I don’t like?  I think that’s a bit much!  I’m going to go ahead and hate things I don’t like, thank you very much.  As for you, I’m going to guess that YOU also are going to go ahead and hate things you don’t like too.  Like maybe me.  Lol.

on a side note. The thing that i dont like about ads it the russian turn 1, it dosen matter if im axis ore allies. If u cout make russian turn one LL and the rest of the game ads i woud play more ads games. ;)

You should know, Enskive, that I don’t care about proving anything to anyone, and I’m not going to shut up.  :-P  If you really think your post was going to draw me out for a challenge or make me stop posting, how’s this:

You shut up your stupid comments.

See, doesn’t work at all, does it, lol.  :lol:

Oh yeah, and about the game - if I won, would it make YOUR points any less valid?  If I lost, would it make MY points any less valid?  No to both, I’m sure you’ll agree.

[Jennifer]

@HolKann:

All@Cmdr:

If you let me know what you want to buy with that cash, I’ll start a new thread in the play games area and roll out Russia’s first turn.

All right, m gonna go 1 inf 1 rtl  in Lib, 1 ipc to Jap. Where can I find the reference rules? Are these (http://www.daak.de/lowluck/lowluckregel.php?sprache=e) allright? Anyways, good luck! (though we won’t need that  8-) )

Looks okay, however just to clarify a couple of things, here’s how I see some of the optionals as listed:

1)  You can roll for a tech with success (attempts purchased)/6  That means if you buy 6 attempts (36 IPC) you are guaranteed the technology you want.  However, you can purchase two attempts if you want too and have a 33% chance of getting the technology.  You may not purchase the technology in parts.  If you buy 5 rolls and roll a 6, you would still need to buy 6 rolls to get a 100% chance of success.

2)  SBR:  Attacker does 3 to 4 IPC in damage per attack.  Defender does 2 to 3 IPC in damage to the bomber.  (On a roll of 1, 2 or 3 take the lesser number, on a roll of 4, 5 or 6 take the larger number.)

[Funcioneta]

@Cmdr:

Yes, it’s 60 IPC.  However, we have people on these boards seriously advocating Germany spend at least 60 IPC on fleet for SZ 5.  I fail to see how 60 IPC in bombers is going to hurt. :P  Especially over a couple of rounds.

Too much IPCs on fleet. 16 is enough most times (the AC). Of course, 60 ipcs in bombers is usually better than 60 in z5 fleet, but still means good times for Western Allies, because Germans cannot defend from them, attack the soviets AND build bombers.

Anyway, more than 2 bombers each axis power is overkill against soviets (they have 2 IC). I don’t like so many bombers for Germany.

@Cmdr:

For arguments sake, Bomber, Fighter, 5 Infantry for Germany round 1, japan no new bombers.  Bomber for Germany in round 3, japan no new bombers until, wild number here, say 5 rounds.  Gotta have enough time to get the complexes running first.

I think only 5 inf is too few for G1. Even with a bid with 3 inf to Ukr. It leaves too choices for soviets.

[Jennifer]

8 isn’t much better then 5, not when those 5 are matched with a German Air Force of 7 Fighters, 2 Bombers where the 8 is matched with just 6 fighters and a bomber.

And 16 IPC for fleet is too little.  You are throwing away 16 ipc on round 1 for nothing.  The allies are not scared of a defensive only carrier in SZ 5 and it doesn’t get in my way at all.  So I can go sink it when I’m ready to start invading Germany directly, until then, I can ignore it without repercussions.

[HolKann]

@Cmdr:

@HolKann:

All@Cmdr:

If you let me know what you want to buy with that cash, I’ll start a new thread in the play games area and roll out Russia’s first turn.

All right, m gonna go 1 inf 1 rtl  in Lib, 1 ipc to Jap. Where can I find the reference rules? Are these (http://www.daak.de/lowluck/lowluckregel.php?sprache=e) allright? Anyways, good luck! (though we won’t need that  8-) )

Looks okay, however just to clarify a couple of things, here’s how I see some of the optionals as listed:

1)  You can roll for a tech with success (attempts purchased)/6  That means if you buy 6 attempts (36 IPC) you are guaranteed the technology you want.  However, you can purchase two attempts if you want too and have a 33% chance of getting the technology.  You may not purchase the technology in parts.  If you buy 5 rolls and roll a 6, you would still need to buy 6 rolls to get a 100% chance of success.

2)  SBR:  Attacker does 3 to 4 IPC in damage per attack.  Defender does 2 to 3 IPC in damage to the bomber.  (On a roll of 1, 2 or 3 take the lesser number, on a roll of 4, 5 or 6 take the larger number.)

Shoot, seems I gave a link for AA2nd instead of AAR: http://www.daak.de/aarll/aarllregel.php?sprache=e . There’s not much difference, except for SBR and techs, which are similar to yours, but better clarified and I like them more. You need 45 IPC’s for a sure technology, and the SBR depends on the country’s value and whether an AA-gun is present, which seems logical and better in accord with the ADS rules. Give them a read, and tell me if we can use those.

Not clearly explained is what happens when both fighters and bombers fly over AA. Can the attacker choose which one(s) take(s) the hit(s), or does one roll for both fighters and bombers apart (for instance: 5 ftr and 1 bmr are getting shot at by AA. Does the defender have a hit on 5- for the fighters and a hit on 1- for the bomber (thus with a 2 hit possiblity)? Or does he have a sure hit and the attacker gets to choose on which airplane? Or does one roll a d6 in this case (6 => hit on bomr, 5- => hit on ftr)?) It’s the same to me, but it has to be clarified beforehand ofcourse…

Anyway, I’m looking forward on capturing Moskva without the need for luck ;)

[Jennifer]

That’s too complicated.

SBRs do 3 to 4 IPC damage and if an AA gun is present, the attacker takes 2 to 3 IPC in damage in return.  It’s simple, easy to remember and does not need to be calculated based on territory value.  After all, we’re talking the AVERAGE result, not the average based on property value and day of the week.  Obviously if the territory is only worth 2 IPC, then you can only do 2 IPC in damage maximum.

Likewise, I don’t know how they get 45 IPC for a technology.  LL rules stipulate that if you attack with 6 infantry, then you get 1 hit no matter what.  Likewise, if you roll 6 dice for one technology, you should get one hit, no matter what.  6 Dice cost 36 IPC.

As for Fighters/Bombers, that’s pretty easy too.  Roll for the fighters, then roll for the bombers.  If Germany attacks Russia with 7 Fighters, 2 Bombers, then Russia kills 1 fighter for sure, and rolls a single AA shot @ 1 for the remaining fighter, then rolls a single AA shot @ 2 to see if a bomber is hit.

Since in Revised, AA Guns are targeting fighters in one group and bombers in another.

[Ashkayel]

@Cmdr:

As for Fighters/Bombers, that’s pretty easy too.  Roll for the fighters, then roll for the bombers.  If Germany attacks Russia with 7 Fighters, 2 Bombers, then Russia kills 1 fighter for sure, and rolls a single AA shot @ 1 for the remaining fighter, then rolls a single AA shot @ 2 to see if a bomber is hit.

Since in Revised, AA Guns are targeting fighters in one group and bombers in another.

Gosh I’ve just realised that in the LHTR (not in OOB) you target Ftr and Bmb separatly… Good to know, but I don’t know if its a good idea to use it like that in LL. Personnally I’ve never used it like that, I’d have rolled a shot @ 3 plus the sure hit.

BTW Holkann, I’m Hendrick from DAAK ;) looking forward for ur J4 :P

[HolKann]

@Cmdr:

Likewise, I don’t know how they get 45 IPC for a technology.  LL rules stipulate that if you attack with 6 infantry, then you get 1 hit no matter what.  Likewise, if you roll 6 dice for one technology, you should get one hit, no matter what.  6 Dice cost 36 IPC.

Hmm, there’s a small difference between tech and battles: for tech it doesn’t matter if one throws four 1’s, or one 1, the result is the same. This is not so for most battles: four hits are not the same as one hit. If you attack with 6 infantry, assuming the opponent has also got a few units, the average hit after doing this battle a zillion times will even out to 1. This is because the times one did’nt throw a 1 is compensated by the times one threw multiple 1’s. If one’s throwing 6 dice for tech, the average to not throw a 1 is roughly 33%, and is not compensated by throwing more 1’s at other tries, because tech doesn’t work that way. So one will only be succesful 2/3 of the time when playing ADS, and LL wishes to keep those game mechanics the same, while reducing the effects of dice.
The rule you suggest is simply a bad rule. I’m quite reluctant to play with it, but if you insist, we’ll use it.
The other rules you suggest, I can live with, they’re not much further from the original game than the ones I’m used to. Ow, and how would you like the rules heavy bombers (especially if techs are going to be cheap  :wink: )

@ Ashkayel: It’s an interesting game we’re playing, I’m not sure who’s on the winning side now…