UK Strategy -"Middle Earth"

[Midnight_Reaper]

@Argothair I like the thrust of this strategy, as you described it. As for the naming rights…

@Argothair said in UK Strategy -"Middle Earth":

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The overall idea here with this modified ‘rebound’ strategy (anyone have a catchier name?)
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How about: “The Allied Outer Perimeter Defense Plan”? Or, shortened to “Outer Perimeter Defense”? That way you can ask your opponent: “You down with OPD?” :stuck_out_tongue:

-Midnight__Reaper

[simon33]

I wonder if the op plays for total victory and not just axis victory on either map?

[crockett36]

I’ll give a fuller reply soon, but how about Operation Ricochet?

I have a strike and fade approach with the Japanese air force. So I fight for India with a bunch of men and AA guns. They die. The fighters (hopefully less than at first) go home. In West India is the retake force, say an art and several men and a few planes that have flown back for the occasion.

And with the factories right there, there’s an endless chain of retake forces (six units per turn).

What I love is that Argothair, you are “possibility thinking” with me to make AnA great again. I appreciate that you understood the retreat to save assets aspect. A game designer I know said about my bloody chess strategy, “I always figure that I can use my pieces better than my opponent.” Ergo, save lives.

[crockett36]

@simon33 yeah I’ve never been a big fan of the victory cities, but those are the current rules. Played out I think the Allies would win. I think I can tweak my strategy to avoid the 6 vc loss in the Pac.

[crockett36]

@simon33 yes, one of the aspects that I’m trying to communicate is that there’s a choreography to the use of planes, mechs, tanks and ships. That they would be in the right place at the right time. The decisive moment. Could the same English airforce that started in India help retake Cairo and then be used to retake Calcutta and then subsequently defend Moscow. Yes.

[crockett36]

The crucial thing with the first turn movements and buys is to declare London off limits and the Atlantic allied. If you find modifications to Operation Ricochet not accomplishing those objectives then you need to readjust your strategy to be closer to the blueprint.

[Argothair]

@randyshervandyke Can you say a little more about that? What does it mean to “declare” London off limits? It sounds like you’re advocating for sending a chunk of the US Pacific fleet into the Atlantic in order to intimidate Germany and psychologically deter them from making any moves into the Atlantic and/or intimidate Germany into calling off Sea Lion.

If so, I’m not sure that’s the right way to think about it. I’m less interested in making it psychologically impossible for Germany to invade London, and more worried about making sure it’s not a winning strategy for Germany to invade London. If Germany invades London and takes a huge loss in so doing, that’s fine with me. Even if Germany captures London for a turn or two, that’s fine with me as long as Germany pays such a high price that the Allies wind up in a winning position.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

The London Calling strategy all but guarantees that Germany will lose their entire navy and eventually London if they are foolish enough to go Sealion on G3 or G4. Combining it with Randy’s strategy would allow the Allies to make early landing in Europe on the western front. What concerns me though is leaving Italy to fester instead of putting them down early in the game. I’ve always been a Kill Italy First kind of player on the Europe side of the board. I have found from past experience that taking Rome out before Moscow falls gives me the best chance for victory when I’m playing the Allies. This is why I advocated earlier in this thread to take the UK out with the Germans. By leaving the Italians with a navy things will get out of hand quickly for the Brits. I like Simon’s suggestion of strafing the fleet with the Italians and then mopping them up with Germany. Depending on the rolls that might just work.

[crockett36]

@Argothair that is exactly what I mean. I ve only played one game where London fell and it did go well for the allies, but I’d rather avoid it. You’re not shaken by the development?

On a strategic level: save London, Atlantic, Moscow, Egypt, India, China, Pac. Should these be thought of in terms of priority and/or chronology? I based my objectives on Churchill s memoirs and his strategies. I think Larry Harris made a game in which that strategy is effective.

[Argothair]

@randyshervandyke Well, everybody has their own approach to the game, and if you get your kicks from emulating Churchill, I certainly won’t try to stop you! For my part, it’s not particularly easy to screw with my head, and I’m happy to trade apparently vital assets like London in exchange for winning the game – that’s part of why I like Operation Ricochet so much! You’re giving up territories (Egypt, India, etc.) that most people fight tooth-and-nail to hold on to because you think it improves your odds of a win. I feel much the same way about London – it can be scary to lose your capital and see Italy start gobbling up UK possessions while the UK is powerless to resist, but if Germany spends 50 IPCs on transports, loses 100 IPCs in planes, and loses another 50 IPCs in tanks and infantry, they just cannot recover. The 30 IPCs you loot from England and the 20 IPC/turn swing you get from conquering British territories simply can’t make up your losses in the 2 to 3 turns that you can hold England for. If you try to hold England for longer than 3 turns, Russia marches into Berlin from the east. It’s just not profitable to conquer a reasonably well-defended London, and so I’m not afraid to invite my opponent to lose his shirt taking my capital.

@GeneralHandGrenade Yup, I mostly agree with that – my usual preference is to Kill Italy First, for exactly the reasons you describe, but I’m enjoying Operation Ricochet as a promising alternative for shaking things up.

[crockett36]

@Argothair I went to Grasshoppers Invitational last year and it was all the rage. Had it done to us. Recapturing it was the last roll of the 1st day of the tournament. I did it with one tank left and tied the game. Of course Russia was wreaking havoc in Eastern Europe, and I had loosed Russia armor and mechs upon the Japanese to punish them for Sealion. They ended up recapturing India for the Allies the very next turn.

General, from an Axis perspective that does seem like the easiest way to take out the Franco-English navy. A different tack would be an air base in Egypt 2nd turn and move the 2nd Franco-English navy through the Suez. In all of my scheming, I’m trying to secure North Africa as quickly as possible, the Med when possible. Keep this a secret, but Italy can still get up to 19 dollars per turn without any assets in Africa.

[TrippleX]

I’ve tried this strategy (the middle earth, not operation ricochet) against myself yesterday. I did make some mistakes, and left calcutta too vurnareble, with not enough strike force to take it back. But besides that, I had the japanese navy, or at least 2AC + some extra, sitting in SZ39 (outside of calcutta) in J3. This prevented me from being able to shuck to persia, and I had to go to egypt with the South African transports.

I imagine that even if I did not make the mistake and Calcutta did not fall J4, but is just “disabled” till more japanese land troops can arrive, the threat of the navy on SZ80 (persia) would prevent me from shucking troops there, and thus halving the troops that can reach calcutta due to only the persian factory being able to supply by land. How would I deal with this? You state threatening Japan with US/ANZAC. How, roughly speaking, would I go about that?

In this specific example, Japan had a naval base, air base, and factory in FIC, so pretty much the entire Asian coastline is in reach of most of the aircrafts, and several ships. With US focusing on the creation of the 4 lane highway, they do not have enough ships to resist a counterattack, and not enough transports to threaten a permanent beachhead.

So how then do I deal with a Japanese navy blockading Calcutta and threatening SZ80’s transport shuck?

[TheDesertFox]

1 answer. Sealion

[Argothair]

@TrippleX Well, Japan is vulnerable in a few different places on its border with America. If the main US Pacific fleet is sitting in Hawaii (relatively safe; the airbase helps protect it and it’s one turn from San Francisco’s reinforcements), then it’s only one turn away from Tokyo, so Japan has to waste a destroyer every turn blocking that route, which the US can sink at a profit with fighters and subs. If you can safely advance the US fleet to Midway or Wake, then Japan has to dump 2 destroyers a turn to block the sea routes. If you can get as far as the Caroline Islands (not unreasonable by turn 4 or 5), now you are in range of any Japanese factories on the Chinese coast, plus the Philippines, plus the money islands, plus Tokyo. At that point Japan can’t realistically block you because you have too many targets, so they are forced to keep enough resources in range of your fleet that they can push you back out. This is very challenging for Japan to do early on without either retreating their fleet from the Indian Ocean or retreating their planes from central China. If they do pull resources over to threaten the US fleet, then you just retreat back to Wake, or Midway, or even to Hawaii, but the point is now Japan has moved backward, and probably spent some money on carriers instead of just building factories and mechs, so their push into mainland Asia is that much slower.

As far as the blockade and an attack on the transport shuck specifically, I wouldn’t worry too much about it. You can afford to lose a transport or two near Persia if they deliver their cargo first, and you can afford to lose India’s income if Japan wants to leave their fleet in the Indian Ocean; it’ll cost Japan more to build a second fleet to fight in the central Pacific then they’ll gain by denying India its mid-game 6 IPCs/turn.

The way to win as the Allies in Global 1940 is to set up more threats than the Axis can counter. The Japanese can nuke your West Indian shuck-shuck, or they can keep the US Pacific Fleet at bay, or they can conquer India, or they can conquer inland China and Siberia, but they can’t do all of those in the first 7 turns, and so whatever fronts survive will be a place where you can push back and fight for control. Don’t over-invest in any one of those threats, be willing to change your spending or your front lines as appropriate, and keep applying pressure where-ever you can afford to do so.

Same thing with the European theater, really – Germany can repeatedly nuke the British Atlantic fleet, or reinforce Norway so it’ll hold against an early US attack, or put enough pressure on Russia with mechs and tanks that they have to retreat to Moscow or even into the Urals, or capture Ukraine and Stalingrad, or help Italy take Egypt, but they can’t do all of that at once in the first 7 turns, so you’ll wind up with some active fronts where the Allies are making gains, and you exploit those for all they’re worth and let the others go at the appropriate time. At least, that’s my philosophy.

[TheDesertFox]

@Argothair In order for the Axis to even have a chance against Middle Earth U.K Japan needs to do a J1 attack. Not just any J1 attack but they need to do the 4 move check-mate as I call it. If you’re unaware of what that is it’s where the Japanese take their 2 carriers’ planes 2 destroyers and sub to do a Pearl Harbor attack. You will destroy the fleet scramble or no scramble. Next you need the U.S to size you up and destroy your blocker in the Hawaiian islands with their San Francisco fleet. And to top of the check-mate Japan brings in their 2 fighters and 2 tactical bombers from the island of Japan as well as the 4 planes on their carriers (Japan should have taken Wake Island to land the 4 extra planes). With that, The entirety of the U.S fleet has single highhandedly been destroyed by Japan as early as Round 2. And with no American navy that leaves you to send your navy into the Indian Ocean to disrupt GHG’s transport shuck of guys into the Middle East and thus pretty much throw the strategy.

[Argothair]

@Luftwaffles41 Pearl Harbor gets discussed a lot – see, e.g., here: https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/31312/pearl-harbour/9.

The problem with J1 Pearl Harbor is that you take forces away from Yunnan, the money islands, Australia, and India. So, yeah, you can destroy the US fleet if you want, but that just means the other Pacific Allies can beat Japan on their own. By the time you get your navy from Hawaii back to India, India and ANZAC will be monsters.

Also, Japan goes before the UK – so if you’re truly concerned that a Pearl Harbor attack would wreck Middle Earth, just play a different strategy with the UK after you see the Pearl Harbor attack. No big deal. What is your favorite UK strategy? What UK openings do you think would work well against Pearl Harbor?

[TheDesertFox]

@Argothair Frankly there is nothing thr U.K really can do to affect the circumstances of the J1 attack as a whole. And to clarify your point Japan should not be taking anything away from the original J1 attack. All they are doing is sending 2 aircraft carriers and a couple destroyers and a submarine to Pearl. So you’re point that anzac and U.K pacific becoming monsters is genuinely irrational and an illogical statement. And as for my personal U.K opening it just all varies on what Germany is doing. If they attempt Sealion then its pretty obvious what im doing… And if they go Afrika Korps then I would more then likely go for defense of the Middle East. But thats just my opinion.

[TheDesertFox]

Also the point in place is U.K doing Middle Earth because thats more than likely the one strategy thats got the axis stumped on what to do. And NOTE: this strategy all revolves to America. If they’re spending 80% of their money to Japan then Middle Earth would fail from the combined joint invasion of Germany and Italy.

[Argothair]

I mean, if you’re taking Wake Island J1, then you’re pulling at least one transport away from the standard J1 attack, and that has immediate consequences – you are either only bringing one transport to the Philippines, meaning you are attacking with 1 inf, 1 tnk, 1 ftr, 1 tac against 2 inf, 1 ftr, and you could easily get diced, or you are skipping the attack on Borneo, which means that India will be richer and you will be slower to collect the money island NO, if you can collect it at all. With only 2 transports in Indonesia for the first couple of turns, your attack is slower by one territory every turn – the infantry that took Borneo could have moved on to take, e.g., Java, but if it wasn’t on Borneo yet then it can’t continue on. So you’re not just down 4 IPCs for one turn; you’re down 4 IPCs for each of the first few turns. There’s also a problem where if you leave the Allies any toeholds in the money islands, then your transports need to be defended – if you take every money island, the Allies need carriers to harass you and they don’t have any carriers in the opening, but if you leave one of the islands in Dutch hands then Indian / ANZAC planes can land there after sinking your transports.

Normally defending your transports wouldn’t be a big problem, but if you’re sending 2 CV, 2 DD, 1 SS to Hawaii then you’re running pretty low on boats. Your starting cruiser has to go to Singapore to fight the British BB there on J1 and may be lost in that battle or by an Indian counter-attack. So the Japanese southern fleet is something like 1 SS, 2 DD, 1 CA, 1 CV, 1 BB.

The British start with 3 DD, 2 CA, 1 CV in the eastern Med + India, which is only very slightly weaker than the Japanese forces you have available – the British could build a couple of subs and get to parity if they’re feeling frisky, or they could just force you to concentrate your fleet in one sea zone, and then you’ll be losing 1-2 Japanese transports every turn as they get picked off by Allied fighters. ANZAC is also potentially a problem – you can’t attack their starting fleet if you are going for Pearl Harbor and the Philippines on J1, so they have a DD, a CA, and 15 IPCs of income turn 1 from Dutch New Guinea that can buy a couple more subs.

Meanwhile, there is no naval base on Wake, so if you move carriers to Wake on J1, they can reach Caroline Islands on J2, Java on J3, and India on J4, assuming no blockers at all and no need to remain near Wake for even one turn to mop up American resistance. Neither assumption is guaranteed.

There’s nothing wrong with launching a Pearl Harbor attack if the Middle Earth defense is what worries you the most as Axis; you’re right to point out that Pearl Harbor makes Middle Earth somewhat less attractive. I don’t think Pearl Harbor is as strong as you think it is, either in general or against Middle Earth specifically. Want to try it out on TripleA? I’ll take the Allies with 24 IPCs in standard or no bid in Balanced Mod, and I’ll play my Middle Earth against your Pearl Harbor.

[TheDesertFox]

I get where your concern comes from but let me give you a broader perception of all this. To cover your points I’m going to go one by one to help you understand this attack and the benefits and success you can reap from it.

@Argothair said in UK Strategy -"Middle Earth":

I mean, if you’re taking Wake Island J1, then you’re pulling at least one transport away from the standard J1 attack, and that has immediate consequences – you are either only bringing one transport to the Philippines, meaning you are attacking with 1 inf, 1 tnk, 1 ftr, 1 tac against 2 inf, 1 ftr, and you could easily get diced, or you are skipping the attack on Borneo, which means that India will be richer and you will be slower to collect the money island NO, if you can collect it at all. With only 2 transports in Indonesia for the first couple of turns, your attack is slower by one territory every turn – the infantry that took Borneo could have moved on to take, e.g., Java, but if it wasn’t on Borneo yet then it can’t continue on. So you’re not just down 4 IPCs for one turn; you’re down 4 IPCs for each of the first few turns. There’s also a problem where if you leave the Allies any toeholds in the money islands, then your transports need to be defended – if you take every money island, the Allies need carriers to harass you and they don’t have any carriers in the opening, but if you leave one of the islands in Dutch hands then Indian / ANZAC planes can land there after sinking your transports.

Japan begins with 3 transports. 2 of them on the coast of China (SZ 19, SZ 20). These 2 will brings 4 units and attack the Philippine Islands along with the Fighter and Tac Bomber from the carrier next to the Caroline Islands so you’re idea of being diced really doesn’t work here. Am I skipping the attack on Borneo? Yes. Is it going to cost me? No. Do you know that India only has 17 ipcs? And thats with Borneo. As I stated before, you’ll have 4 guys to then send to Celebes, Java, Sumatra and Borneo with your 2 transports and take all 4 of them if you so choose. And assuming that U.K is doing a Middle Earth strategy they won’t be using that small fleet to cross the triangle of Persia, SA, and Egypt. Your transports will be defended by 1 carrier with 2 fighters on it, and 2 battleships. If that’s not enough then maybe you’re infantry can personally swim out to protect the transport. ANZAC only has 1 fighter. Literally one. If they wanna spend that 10 ipcs on another fighter then they can. It wont make a difference.

Normally defending your transports wouldn’t be a big problem, but if you’re sending 2 CV, 2 DD, 1 SS to Hawaii then you’re running pretty low on boats. Your starting cruiser has to go to Singapore to fight the British BB there on J1 and may be lost in that battle or by an Indian counter-attack. So the Japanese southern fleet is something like 1 SS, 2 DD, 1 CA, 1 CV, 1 BB.

1 Aircraft Carrier (1 fighter, 1 Tac Bomber), 2 battleships, 2 destroyers, 1 cruiser, 1 submarine. I suppose that’s a small and insignificant fleet to ANZAC and U.K Pacific.

The British start with 3 DD, 2 CA, 1 CV in the eastern Med + India, which is only very slightly weaker than the Japanese forces you have available – the British could build a couple of subs and get to parity if they’re feeling frisky, or they could just force you to concentrate your fleet in one sea zone, and then you’ll be losing 1-2 Japanese transports every turn as they get picked off by Allied fighters. ANZAC is also potentially a problem – you can’t attack their starting fleet if you are going for Pearl Harbor and the Philippines on J1, so they have a DD, a CA, and 15 IPCs of income turn 1 from Dutch New Guinea that can buy a couple more subs.

Unless the British are invading Tobruk, they’d be absolutely stupid in the head not to do the Taranto Raid. Especially if they plan on focusing their resources into a full force Middle Earth strategy. Yes, build 12 ipcs of sea units that totally won’t not be utterly destroyed at any point in the game. The British only have 2 fighters and 1 Tac Bomber in India. What they plan to do with it is unknown to me. But I’d welcome them attacking my fleet to take out the one air force they can’t even afford to rebuild in 2 turns. And yes you can attack ANZAC’s destroyer and transport with the destroyer you have in SZ 33. Take out the destroyer and transport with no scramble and the cruiser comes after you manage to hit a 1 or 2 and you destroyed the entirety of ANZAC’s navy. Once again, by all means spend 12 ipcs on units that will totally be there to see the dawn of sunrise over the American Flag in Tokyo…

Meanwhile, there is no naval base on Wake, so if you move carriers to Wake on J1, they can reach Caroline Islands on J2, Java on J3, and India on J4, assuming no blockers at all and no need to remain near Wake for even one turn to mop up American resistance. Neither assumption is guaranteed.

There is an airbase. And there’s a specific reason for taking Wake Island. Because that one island is what’s going to decide the life or death of the ENTIRE American Pacific fleet if they move their San Francisco fleet to challenge yours. Frankly any of my starting navy on the coast of Japan would be overkill in a natural J1 attack which would be a waste of valuable resources.

There’s nothing wrong with launching a Pearl Harbor attack if the Middle Earth defense is what worries you the most as Axis; you’re right to point out that Pearl Harbor makes Middle Earth somewhat less attractive. I don’t think Pearl Harbor is as strong as you think it is, either in general or against Middle Earth specifically. Want to try it out on TripleA? I’ll take the Allies with 24 IPCs in standard or no bid in Balanced Mod, and I’ll play my Middle Earth against your Pearl Harbor.

Don’t misunderstand me. All I’m killing is a Transport, Submarine, Cruiser and Destroyer, nothing to wright home about. What is to wright home about is if the American fleet on San Francisco moves down to secure Hawaii from you. And believe me when I say it I’ll put everything on the line to destroy that American fleet. Because once that fleet dies any chance of the Allies winning goes with it. But take it with a grain of salt if you must. Believe me it sounds easy to have 70+ ipcs as America but if you’re really willing to let the Japanese win with 6 victory cities or rebuild your navy from scratch and allow Germany to do Operation Sealion.