AARHE: Lite

[Imperious Leader]

WE need to keep these> I got rid of some. Add these in and latter we can simplify. Start work. No more of this methodology. Lets get something done.

Phase 3: Submarine Movement  1  -> might be a bit complex for lite to roll dice even before combat
Phase 4: Land Combat: Air Units: Jet Superiority      1 -> not major, not core to gameplay
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Air Units: Jet Supremacy        1 -> not major, not core to gameplay
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare    1 -> AARHE hit allocation already sorts out a lot, we could remove this paragraph, which’ll merely removes first cycle bonus
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)    1 -> a bit complex for lite, we don’t want players to have to allocate air/naval units to ASW resulting in a complex combat seqeunce

Phase 4: Counter-Air Mission (CA)        1
-> I think “air missions” sounds complex for lite, could do with just the 2 most important moves, SBR and DAS, SBR rule is already in and that describes the AA and dogfight before SBR rolls

++++++++++++No CA and DAS are the most important historical models right along SBR. They dont take up too much space. leave them. If people cant figure these ideas out then they are stupid and don’t deserve anything we create.

[tekkyy]

Don’t worry. Its going great. We’ve progressed a lot.
We add items to the list once we’ve reached concensus.

Its better than you add some, I add some…round robin style.
That will only produce a document neither of us agree with.

Though it seems we have different feelings towards AARHE:Lite. I want it fairly light.
AARHE is just 20 pages excluding NA. If AARHE:Lite takes 10 pages then whats the point?
I am hoping Lite will be quite a bit under 10 pages.
The list is fairly long already. Will see what happens.

In already:

Phase 1: Economic Attacks
Phase 1: Lend-Lease
Phase 2: Sorched Earth
Phase 3: Air Movement
Phase 3: Stalinist Xenophobia
Phase 3: Airborne Drop
Phase 3: Air Reinforcement: Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)
Phase 3: Naval Transport
Phase 3: Naval Occupation
Phase 4: Retreat Decision
Phase 4: Defender retreat
Phase 4: Attacker Retreat
Phase 4: Land Combat: Air Units
Phase 4: Land Combat: Air Units: Air Superiority
Phase 4: Land Combat: Anti-Air
Phase 4: Land Combat: Hit Allocation
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Air units
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Air
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Hit Allocation
Phase 4: Wolf pack
Phase 4: Submarine Submerge
Phase 4: Economic attacks
Phase 4: Strategic Bombing Raid
Phase 5: Air Transport
Phase 5: Non-combat Reinforcement
Phase 6: Mobilization Limit* (new)
Phase 7: Jet supermacy

Comments on remaining conflicts:

Phase 3: Submarine Movement: this rule merely lets submarines go through destroyers after rolling, rolling before combat might be a lot
Phase 4: Land/Naval: Jet Supremacy: selecting targets before each roll might be a lot
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare + Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) how do you intend to simplify these two? I am worry about selecting targets before rolling and unit allocation…and I am sugguesting no ASW search, submarines undetected first cycle, detected other cycles (the same as normal AARHE except you roll search dice to determine for first cycle)
Phase 4: Counter-Air Mission (CA) -> ok we’ll have it, this is going to add some length

[Imperious Leader]

Phase 3: Submarine Movement: this rule merely lets submarines go through destroyers after rolling, rolling before combat might be a lot.

Its only a few lines of text. Sub stall is a HUGE issue and this puts an end to it. Subs are too good value for what they do. This takes away some of this and gives value to destroyers, which can indeed stop fleets but at a higher price.

Phase 4: Land/Naval: Jet Supremacy: selecting targets before each roll might be a lot

Its easy to use this rule. anything that is simple to learn and has AARHE ideas mus be used whenever possible.

Phase 4: Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare + Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) how do you intend to simplify these two? I am worry about selecting targets before rolling and unit allocation…and I am sugguesting no ASW search, submarines undetected first cycle, detected other cycles (the same as normal AARHE except you roll search dice to determine for first cycle)

This is a major component from AARHE. It cant be removed. Just try and make it in simple jargon.

Phase 4: Counter-Air Mission (CA) -> ok we’ll have it, this is going to add some length

This is a must have or the battle of Britain does not happen. Ground interdiction should be kept also but made simple.

ALSO, get rid of that “you lose 4 ipc” thingy from the normal AARHE rules. I have 2 people also telling me it makes no sence and try to argue that all they have to do is get a sub in the atlantic and Germany loses 4 ipc if they own the Azores.

Convoy Sea Zone

A sea zone part of a path* [see Spending or Saving IPC] is a convoy sea zone. Each hostile naval unit
(except Transport) destroys 1 IPC. This is applied to IPC going via the path. Exception applies if it is an
island sea zone, then each hostile naval unit (except Transport) destroys 4 IPC instead.

This line must go away.  Japan owns like 10 island groups and USA buys 10 subs and takes 40 ipc off japan. Rubbish.

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

Phase 3: Submarine Movement: this rule merely lets submarines go through destroyers after rolling, rolling before combat might be a lot.

Its only a few lines of text. Sub stall is a HUGE issue and this puts an end to it. Subs are too good value for what they do. This takes away some of this and gives value to destroyers, which can indeed stop fleets but at a higher price.

oh, then its “Naval Movement” you want, not “Submarine Movement”

Phase 4: Land/Naval: Jet Supremacy: selecting targets before each roll might be a lot

Its easy to use this rule. anything that is simple to learn and has AARHE ideas mus be used whenever possible.

yeah I’ve moved that item to the draft list already
it’ll be a line when explaining the Jet tech

Phase 4: Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare + Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) how do you intend to simplify these two? I am worry about selecting targets before rolling and unit allocation…and I am sugguesting no ASW search, submarines undetected first cycle, detected other cycles (the same as normal AARHE except you roll search dice to determine for first cycle)

This is a major component from AARHE. It cant be removed. Just try and make it in simple jargon.

download the latest full AARHE (since we’ve simplified some aspects just recently) and give some ideas then
its already written in the minimal way

Phase 4: Counter-Air Mission (CA) -> ok we’ll have it, this is going to add some length

This is a must have or the battle of Britain does not happen. Ground interdiction should be kept also but made simple.

right… nowyou even want GI now

almost everything in conduct combat phase you want in
conduct combat is 7 pages (p.6 - p.13)
we are removing like 1 page only

so Lite is going to be over 10 pages
(I will give you a definite figure soon)

remmeber we are making AARHE:Lite
not AARHE with just a handful of rules removed

I’ve told you from the start and I’ll remind you again
you need to be more selective
some things has got to be less important

ALSO, get rid of that “you lose 4 ipc” thingy from the normal AARHE rules.

I’ve replied in the other thread.

[tekkyy]

ok test document is 11 pages
sure we could cut a few things
but we’ll still be 9 pages

http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20080331_AARHE_Lite_preview.pdf

we really need a portable document of about 5 pages
so people would actually try it

another representation…
things we’ve removed so far, just too few IMO:

Phase 1: Production Interruption
Phase 1: Logistics
Phase 1: Spending or Saving IPC
Phase 1: Convoy Sea Zone

Phase 2: Variable Industrial Complex Costs
Phase 2: Variable Infantry Costs
Phase 2: Purchase Developments

Phase 3: Submarine Movement
Phase 3: Strait Interdiction
Phase 3: Canals and Waterways
Phase 3: Terrain
Phase 3: Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis Co-operation

Phase 4: Conduct Combat
Phase 4: Land Combat: Amphibious Assault Sequence, 1st cycle
Phase 4: Break off
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Battleships

Phase 5: Air Transport
Phase 5: Non-combat Reinforcement
Phase 5: Strategic Redeployment (optional)
Phase 5: Other Restrictions

Phase 6: Industrial Complex Mobilization
Phase 6: Victory City Mobilization

Phase 7: Research Progress
Phase 7: Technology Deployment

[Imperious Leader]

Ok a few suggestions.

Get rid of the “fluff”

nobody cares about who made it. Remove the names.

get rid of the spaces from the bold headings to the start of the first sentence:

example of what you have:

Air Combat:

Air combat can be allowed in light and thank god Tekkyy is allowing it. ewjhfufjejl
ewljfjefjlfjlfjlflfl

Now do this:

Air combat:
In this version we allow air flight. In fact you need lots of planes in AARHE: Lite

also, leave out the optional units.

now i cut out 3 pages of ‘fluff’

[tekkyy]

remove introduction
remove acknowledgements
remove optional units
remove airborne drop
remove references to optional units
wrote the mobilisation rule
added tech

reduced by 2 pages, it is still 9 pages

conduct combat is 4 pages and a bit (p . 3 - p . 8 )
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20080331b_AARHE_Lite.pdf

as you can see this is very long

I think we don’t need Submarine warfare and ASW
I would just make it only Destroyer hits can be allocated on submarines
after tech, fighter hits can also be allocated on submarines
submarine hit allocation is already in

for tech I’ve put in
Jet Fighters -> Jet Plane
Rockets -> Rockets
Super Submarines -> Advanced Submarine
Long-Range Aircraft -> Long Range Aircraft
Combined Bombardment -> Advanced Anti-Submarine Warfare
Heavy Bombers -> Heavy Bomber

[Imperious Leader]

If you get rid of all those blank spaces between lines you have 1 more page easily. You wrote it in triple space?

[tekkyy]

no its single spacing
and it is in the same formatting as normal AARHE

focus on content

ASW, Submarine warfare, Counter Air, Ground Interdiction, etc…there has to be something that is not as important as core ideas of AARHE

I think ASW can be replaced by adding to hit allocation that only destroyer hits can be allocated on submarine
Submarine warfare can be removed, hit allocation already only has the relevant restrictions
ASW tech then lets fighter hits be allocated on submarines
naval combat sequence is then shortened

or make your own sugguestions

[Imperious Leader]

Its not single space. Come on now. Their is no freeking way your going to tell be that every other line does not have a wasted line from the bold heading to the actual content.

If you cant make it work, go back to Microsoft office. At least that allows you to do what you want to do.

or just remove the bold text and make it slanted text or underlined.

I am 100% sure a line is lost in every space from bold heading to text.

ON ASW type exactly what you want it to read and also what it reads now.

[tekkyy]

unfortunately msword does a lot less in other areas
line spacing is set to single, thats inside paragraphs
the spacing before and after headings does leave some gap
I’ll learn how to use change the layout file in a moment
in latex the layout file does the formatting for you
the document gets a consistent and professional look

anyway the point is that it was using same formatting as AARHE
allowing a direct comparison…AARHE is 20 pages, Lite is 9 pages
we’ll want to get closer to 5 pages

I’ve got rid of the page header (section and page number) and reduced margins
later on if you want we can even shrunk font, make it 2 columns, etc…

the ASW changes I am thinking should give us a simple system that is some sense similar to full blown rules, formally:

Naval Combat: Sequence
Pre-Combat
1. ASW search (1st cycle only).
Opening-fire
1. Undetected Submarines fire, selectively (1st cycle only).
2. Naval units perform Anti-Air.
3. Remove casualties.
Mid-Combat
1. Units are allocated to normal combat or ASW.
Main Round
1. Detected Submarines fire.
2. ASW attack.
3. Naval units fire.
4. Air units fire.
5. Remove casualties.
Retreat Decision
1. Defender
2. Attacker
->
Opening-fire
1. Naval units perform Anti-Air.
2. Remove casualties.
Main Round
1. Air units fire.
2. Naval units fire.
3. Remove casualties.
Retreat Decision
1. Defender
2. Attacker

Naval Combat: Hit Allocation
Submarine can never be hit by naval units except by Anti-Submarine Warfare rolls.
->
Only Destroyer hits can be allocted on Submarine.

Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare
Undetected Submarines fire in opening-fire and selectively. It may only target non-Submarine naval units. All targets are selected before any rolls. Detected Submarines fire in main-round. Submarines are automatically detected from second cycle of combat.
->
In the first cycle of combat Submarines fire in opening-fire and selectively. All targets are selected before any rolls.

Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)
Remove
(In full blown AARHE only Destroyers can perform ASW attack, value is 2…the same as normal combat value.)

Tech: Advanced Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)
You ASW now have the following base values:
->
Fighter hits can now be allocated on Submarines.
(In full blown AARHE fighters can perform both ASW search and ASW attack rolls.)

[Imperious Leader]

Naval Combat: Hit Allocation
Submarine can never be hit by naval units except by Anti-Submarine Warfare rolls.
->
Only Destroyer hits can be allocted on Submarine.

Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare
Undetected Submarines fire in opening-fire and selectively. It may only target non-Submarine naval units. All targets are selected before any rolls. Detected Submarines fire in main-round. Submarines are automatically detected from second cycle of combat.
->
In the first cycle of combat Submarines fire in opening-fire and selectively. All targets are selected before any rolls.

Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)
Remove
(In full blown AARHE only Destroyers can perform ASW attack, value is 2…the same as normal combat value.)

Tech: Advanced Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)
You ASW now have the following base values:
->
Fighter hits can now be allocated on Submarines.
(In full blown AARHE fighters can perform both ASW search and ASW attack rolls.)

This makes sence, except i don’t like the idea of other ships doing ASW search, we still need the search rolls and only allow DD,CA, and bombers or transport planes to search, but w/o tech only the DD and CA can actually hit, they they need to roll separately in combat.

Also, remove shielding rules for first strike capabilities, and after that round once the sub is found, then the defender can allocate his own hits or retreat, otherwise all sub hits on non located subs are always allocated by the attacking subs.

ON the wasted space issues, remove the bold headings and see if the lines get closer, place former bold headings in Italics to make it different. Take the Phase 3, Phase 2 headings, etc and make them colored and underlined so they also stand out

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

This makes sence, except i don’t like the idea of other ships doing ASW search, we still need the search rolls and only allow DD,CA, and bombers or transport planes to search, but w/o tech only the DD and CA can actually hit, they they need to roll separately in combat.

Also, remove shielding rules for first strike capabilities, and after that round once the sub is found, then the defender can allocate his own hits or retreat, otherwise all sub hits on non located subs are always allocated by the attacking subs.

the only thing ASW search does was to determine if a Submarine gets first strike
since we are letting Submarines have first strike in first cycle
there is no longer a need to perform ASW search
you only have to say submarines fire selectivey in opening-fire in first cycle of combat

I would like to remind you again that the shielding rule and class system were removed a while back

ON the wasted space issues, remove the bold headings and see if the lines get closer, place former bold headings in Italics to make it different. Take the Phase 3, Phase 2 headings, etc and make them colored and underlined so they also stand out

you don’t have to set formatting for every bloody thing in a document in latex (unlike word processor)
just mark certain headings as chapter, section, subsection, subsubsection, paragraph, etc…
the document class (article, book, letter, ieee, ams, etc) formats it for you
Latex is THE professional document creation platform for the commerical and academic world

anyway I’ve applied those naval changes and got rid of some space
its now 7 pages
(I also tested 2 columns, which makes it 4.5 pages)

http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20080402_AARHE_Lite.pdf

we’ve shrunk a lot by formatting and not much by contents :-P
sure we could shrink the language and reduce it by like 0.2 pages but I think ultimately a couple of rules has to go to finish off

or, we could ask people like Jen and switch now to see if this is “lite” enough for them to play

[Imperious Leader]

OMG you finally did it. Now thats much better looking!  all those stupid spaces gone…why was this not done earlier?

Lets see the 2 columns version?

This makes sence, except i don’t like the idea of other ships doing ASW search, we still need the search rolls and only allow DD,CA, and bombers or transport planes to search, but w/o tech only the DD and CA can actually hit, they they need to roll separately in combat.
Also, remove shielding rules for first strike capabilities, and after that round once the sub is found, then the defender can allocate his own hits or retreat, otherwise all sub hits on non located subs are always allocated by the attacking subs.

the only thing ASW search does was to determine if a Submarine gets first strike
since we are letting Submarines have first strike in first cycle
there is no longer a need to perform ASW search
you only have to say submarines fire selectively in opening-fire in first cycle of combat

This is too close to OOB rules… it needs to preserve the idea that you need to buy ASW ships to have a chance to protect the fleet, the current AARHE sub search rules need to stay in place, they need to be treated seperatly in combat

[tekkyy]

OMG you finally did it. Now thats much better looking!  all those stupid spaces gone…why was this not done earlier?
Lets see the 2 columns version?

I don’t know about better looking
different people have different ideas on how a document should look, doesn’t matter

other space saving measures were used, such as changing VC table into list

1 column 6 pages
2 column 4 pages

http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20080403_AARHE_Lite_1col.pdf
http://home.exetel.com.au/cometo/aarhe/20080403_AARHE_Lite_2col.pdf

This is too close to OOB rules… it needs to preserve the idea that you need to buy ASW ships to have a chance to protect the fleet, the current AARHE sub search rules need to stay in place, they need to be treated seperatly in combat

in full AARHE ASW search is only for first cycle
submarines are automatically detected from 2nd cycle onwards
the only change I made here is that during 1st cycle, submarines are always undetected

or how about make it each destroyer detects 1 submarine?
(and with ASW tech, each fighter also detect 1 submarines)

that pretty much emulates full AARHE while keeping it short

regardless its not like OOB at all
submarine never get selective fire in OOB

[Imperious Leader]

2 columns seems rather nifty!  Its takes all the blck space away, but in this version i think the bottom margin should not have text that far near the bottom, about a 3/4 inch on top and bottom, and room for page numbers. Otherwise very nice. Also would like some colors added because it looks rather plain. Perhaps the watermark returns?

This is too close to OOB rules… it needs to preserve the idea that you need to buy ASW ships to have a chance to protect the fleet, the current AARHE sub search rules need to stay in place, they need to be treated seperatly in combat
in full AARHE ASW search is only for first cycle
submarines are automatically detected from 2nd cycle onwards
the only change I made here is that during 1st cycle, submarines are always undetected

or how about make it each destroyer detects 1 submarine?
(and with ASW tech, each fighter also detect 1 submarines)

that pretty much emulates full AARHE while keeping it short

regardless its not like OOB at all
submarine never get selective fire in OOB

Yes i think that could work. Each ASW unit Cruiser or destroyer can detect one sub, so both players are trying to out build each other. Good solution. But remember this should be recalculated each round, so if the subs get lucky on hits it can go the other way. So each round you do this. Tekkyy: pat yourself on the back, thats a winner move!

Lets leave the other issue aside for now and get Lite done.

Also, id like to add the optional units back in, but only bring into the game: Fighter-bomber, transport plane, mech infantry, airborne infantry, cruisers, and perhaps another… NO SPA, or heavy tanks, but germany should have its elite panzers ( SS) as per the NA

[Imperious Leader]

the watermark version is nice. But a little more window dressing is required… Perhaps  a better script for AARHE with some art

I can make a “logo” with the national icons under the heading… just to give it something decent.

Also, if you add the few optional units to the same chart as the regular units with a line saying “optional” it would take minimal space…?

[tekkyy]

actually I’ll grab the normal AARHE logo then

actually optional units will add back quite some length
because I’ve removed a lot of references to optional units to get to this length

[Imperious Leader]

but it would be really nice to have at least 3 of them:

Fighters-bombers
Cruisers
Mechanized infantry

thats it. see how much it adds. ASW cant just be destroyers and we cant just have 2 types of planes, while the game needs a faster moving land unit to pair up with tanks ( 2 moving at 1 2 moving at 2)

[tekkyy]

well, you can’t have everything
think of what to give up if you think the optional units are that important
the most gameplay-significant optional unit is probably none of those but naval fighter anyway

its 4 pages and very tight on space
don’t think its worth push it over 4 pages
this is going to be critical for attractiveness of our house rule

I feel the better thing is for players to refer to AARHE and decide for themselves, if they feel like it
this is Lite, quick read is important
we can squeeze in a line is though (eg. "For optional units, consider picking from the full AARHE ruleset.)