Germany Keys

[ankmcfly]

What about a BB in the Baltic? Has anyone ever tried it? (I haven’t)
Takes to hits to kill, plus the offense fire power to attack in concert with
some planes means you might be able to move the fleet around a bit.

On the down side, 24 beans gone leaves a G1 purchase with 4 inf and a art.
That may be too little against Russia.

If anyone has tried this, please share your results.

[Jennifer]

Hell, why not 2 Destroyers and 2 Transports in the Baltic then. :P  I mean, if we are going to produce navy for Germany, why go in half-arsed when we can use our FULL ARSE!

3 Destroyers, 2 Submarines, 3 Transports and all your German aircraft in W. Europe with the Battleship/Transport from SZ 14 in SZ 13 (and probably that SZ 8 submarine too, unless England get great defensive rolls or something) and you could have a nice little sea lion set up. :P

Oh yea, weird strat year just got another weird strat to try out!  Hey!  I think I’ll do Battleship, 2 Transports….nah, 2 destroyers are 2 X 3 or less, 1 Battleship is only 1 X 4 or less.  Better stick to the extra units, though the extra bombardment would be nice. :P

[Nukchebi0]

Has anyone ever tried completely eliminating the British navy and ensuring it can’t harass you? Heavy naval purchases the first two turns, obviously.

My friend did this successfully, and Britain was never a problem until round 6. Africa was firmly in German control, and the Axis won.

[Jennifer]

Hard to do, it would almost necessitate a submarine bid in SZ 8 without Russia taking out Norway on R1.

Unless you mean after Germany 1 instead of on Germany 1, and yes, I’ve worked on a few different ways to do it.  The German navy can be quite formidable if you stage right and don’t get hit with subprime dice.

[newpaintbrush]

1.  A German battleship in the Med yields interesting results in that you have more battleship support shots and a stronger hit and run against Allied navy.  But by “interesting”, I do not mean “good”.  The lack of G1 infantry REALLY hurts and the compensation of the battleship is insufficient.  Yarly.

2.  Yeah, there’s a play for the Brit navy that begins with a German sub bid in SZ 8 allowing 2 sub 1 fighter 1 bomber vs 1 sub 1 trans 1 battleship northwest of UK and German navy and/or air vs Gibraltar.  Problem is, with an Atlantic bid, you don’t get an Africa bid, and the German bomber is already being sent to UK navy instead of Anglo-Egypt.  Also, you can’t control the Russian opening, so you might run into a Ukraine opening with 2 inf 2 art placed in Caucasus and 2 tank in Russia.  So what this means is that Germany potentially has to deal with 2 sub 1 fighter 1 bomber vs 1 sub 1 trans 1 battleship, plus 3 fighter vs UK battleship, plus 1 battleship 1 transport vs 1 destroyer plus 2 infantry 1 artillery 1 tank vs 1 infantry 1 tank 1 fighter, with 1 German fighter discretionary which just isn’t enough to cover all the bases.  Germany gets some compensation with strong control of the Atlantic early game (and hence African IPCs and control of European territories, but note a UK recapture of Anglo-Egypt slows German progress in Africa a lot), but the US comes in very fast with up to two ACs, which is just too much for the depleted German airforce to handle and the game transposes into a near-traditional KGF, with less Allied navy but also less German air.

The Germans are not much better off with added IPCs from Atlantic control, and have fewer fighters to shift against Russia later on.

If the Germans do HEAVY naval purchases G1, depending on an Atlantic sub build and Med fleet move, Russia should be able to control a good bit of territory early on that Germany has to fight against later in the form of more Russian infantry.  Another problem is that German navy can’t be used against ground targets.  So the Allies have plenty of time to respond to the German threat.  I would think, Nukchebi, that the German victory in the example you gave was either due to good dice by the Germans/poor dice by the Allies, or poor Allied strategy, rather than a triumph of a superior untried German strategy that the Allies cannot respond to.

[Nukchebi0]

I remember more of that game now, and it was entirely unconventional. The US and Japan were fighting solely in the Pacific (India and China taken, but none of the Far Eastern territories in Russia), and thus just building big navies with lots of battleships. Consequently, it was Britain and Russia vs. Germany, which made the lack of British reinforcements death for Russia, even without Japanese pressure.

Against a traditional KGF with US involvement in Europe, I see how this strategy will fail.

(So yes, it was due to a poor Allied strategy).

[Jennifer]

Well, Bunnies, I don’t agree that Egypt is a necessary attack for Germany.  In fact, I am leaning towards NOT attacking it lately.  This allows England to shoot himself in the foot by invading the Med with his fleet which allows Germany to quickly close the trap by taking Egypt on G2 and hitting it with the German navy on G3. (course it means getting fighters and navy in range on G2 by building or moving it there.  So what?)

And yes, America’s coming in with two fully loaded carriers.  However, that’s less troops and transports that Germany has to deal with.  The idea isn’t to master the Pacific forever, just to recover from using a full round of purchases to sink the British navy if it gets in the way and/or deny England any capitol ships at all at the start of the game.

[Gerbilkit]

So two tran buy demands the UK send in their aircraft?

I like this.  For 16 IPC I get to slaughter the RAF on UK1, and I might not lose more than subs and maybe one tran if I’m lucky.

Maybe I should experiment with 3.  :evil:

[Guest]

3 is a completely different UK1 counter…  It involves an AC buy by UK, and is a source of ongoing disagreement between me and the head of Caspian Sub…

[newpaintbrush]

@ncscswitch:

3 is a completely different UK1 counter…  It involves an AC buy by UK, and is a source of ongoing disagreement between me and the head of Caspian Sub…

So maybe you think the UK should buy an AC and maybe the head of Caspian Sub thinks you shouldn’t buy an AC.  So maybe the UK1 counter doesn’t involve an AC after all.  Dun dun dun.

@Cmdr:

Well, Bunnies, I don’t agree that Egypt is a necessary attack for Germany.  In fact, I am leaning towards NOT attacking it lately.  This allows England to shoot himself in the foot by invading the Med with his fleet which allows Germany to quickly close the trap by taking Egypt on G2 and hitting it with the German navy on G3. (course it means getting fighters and navy in range on G2 by building or moving it there.  So what?)

And yes, America’s coming in with two fully loaded carriers.  However, that’s less troops and transports that Germany has to deal with.  The idea isn’t to master the Pacific forever, just to recover from using a full round of purchases to sink the British navy if it gets in the way and/or deny England any capitol ships at all at the start of the game.

If Germany doesn’t attack Anglo-Egypt at all on G1, UK CAN (doesn’t have to depending on German fleet and air position) put up to 1 transport 2 destroyer 1 carrier 2 fighter in the sea zone, and UK can have up to 5 inf 1 tank in Transjordan plus 1 fighter in Russia and 1 bomber in range to support.  Japan gets a significant boost in Asia with the survival of the Kwangtung transport, but Germany has to contend with a strong UK3 navy and no progress in Africa, and UK has the flexibility to retreat from Transjordan towards India, strongly attacking Japan in spite of that early Japanese transport advantage.

Specifically, German fighters will probably not be in range to hit the waters north of Anglo-Egypt/west of Transjordan at the end of G1, so Germany can at best attack that UK fleet of 1 transport 2 destroyer 1 carrier 2 fighter on G2 with 1 transport 1 battleship 1 bomber (ugly).  I suppose you’re saying Germany can capture Anglo-Egypt on G2 to cut off the UK fleet and move German air east, without attacking the UK fleet, but if Germany doesn’t hit that UK fleet on G2, UK2 sees 1 transport 2 destroyer 1 carrier 4 fighter 1 bomber attacking the German fleet of 1 transport 1 battleship which probably means dead German navy and the possibility of the UK STILL controlling a sizable fleet that can survive a German air attack.  (Note that I assume the Allies did NOT unite the fleet off Algeria, because that scenario is just too horrible for the Germans and it can reasonably be prevented with 1 trans 1 battleship 5 fighter 1 bomber threatening an Allied fleet of 4 transport 1 sub 1 destroyer 1 battleship max though the Allied fleet may be decreased by a G1 Atlantic sub bid as described in a previous post for Allied fleet of 3 transport 1 destroyer at Algeria, which is clearly no good at all.)

Still, regardless of the Atlantic scenario, the only way for the Germans to survive the UK2 attack (given no attacks on Anglo-Egypt) is a very expensive Mediterranean fleet buy of minimum 2 carrier which even then isn’t necessarily favorable unless the Germans preserved some additional fleet like the Atlantic sub, and even that may only achieve parity, not superiority (Allied attack of 01333 3334 vs German defense of 01334 444 is still not favorable and requires TWO CARRIERS at S. Europe, so makes for a very possibly horribly ghastly and decisive UK2 attack and in any event horribly slows Germany in Europe.

The two fully loaded US carrier scenario is not in response to a German ignore of Anglo-Egypt, it’s in response to an aggressive German naval strategy that preserves German fleet elements and a good degree of German air.

[DarthMaximus]

@ncscswitch:

2 TRN buy DEMANDS a UK attack in SZ5.  You have to sack the 2 FIGs 1 BOM to avoid several turns of Sea Lion risk while you build up your fleet and landing forces.

I would disagree with this.
I don’t see how the UK can make that attack.
Best Case you leave Ger with 1 trn, 1 dd
Avg to Bad Case you leave them with 2-3 trns, 1 dd
Worst Case you whiff and take a double hit and end up retreating the bom.  Which leaves you facing the same scenerio minus the UK ftrs for defense.
Even if you get two hits in the battle you still risk seeing 3 trns sitting in Sz 5 on G2.

I think 2 ftrs, 1 bom vs. 2 sub, 1 trn, 1 dd is a bad attack so I think going against 2 subs, 3 trns, 1 dd is a really bad attack.

I usually think it is bad to attack with less units then what is defending.  3 units attacking 6 just looks like a disaster waiting to happen.  There are some exceptions, certainly planes vs. only subs, but I just don’t like the early risk here for the Allies.

[Weekend Gamer]

@DarthMaximus:

@ncscswitch:

2 TRN buy DEMANDS a UK attack in SZ5.  You have to sack the 2 FIGs 1 BOM to avoid several turns of Sea Lion risk while you build up your fleet and landing forces.

I would disagree with this.
I don’t see how the UK can make that attack.
Best Case you leave Ger with 1 trn, 1 dd
Avg to Bad Case you leave them with 2-3 trns, 1 dd
Worst Case you whiff and take a double hit and end up retreating the bom.  Which leaves you facing the same scenerio minus the UK ftrs for defense.
Even if you get two hits in the battle you still risk seeing 3 trns sitting in Sz 5 on G2.

I think 2 ftrs, 1 bom vs. 2 sub, 1 trn, 1 dd is a bad attack so I think going against 2 subs, 3 trns, 1 dd is a really bad attack.

I usually think it is bad to attack with less units then what is defending.  3 units attacking 6 just looks like a disaster waiting to happen.  There are some exceptions, certainly planes vs. only subs, but I just don’t like the early risk here for the Allies.

Well said, and I would also say “Just say no” to heavy Axis naval purchases unless:  (1) you really know what you are doing (most don’t); (2) Russia got TOTALLY SMOKED on R1 dice; or (3) your opponent does something stupid with the Allies and you have IPCs and time to burn.

[Gerbilkit]

@ncscswitch:

3 is a completely different UK1 counter…  It involves an AC buy by UK, and is a source of ongoing disagreement between me and the head of Caspian Sub…

Could you elaborate? I’m failing to see how an AC buy on UK1 is a remotely viable or useful strategy but I could be missing something.

[lmtdconv]

I would say because Germany is massing a navy, even if the transports are used for fodder, they could still easily take out you UK Navy so you have to sure it up with a car and 2 fig.

[Jennifer]

Bunnies:

You are missing the point, in my opinion.

Yes, you CAN have Transport, 2 Fighters, 2 Destroyers and a Carrier in SZ 15 on UK 1 if Germany does not take SZ 15 and Egypt on Germany 1.

And yes, you CAN have 5 infantry + change in Trans-Jordan as well.

However!

Germany can take Egypt on Round 2, build 3 Submarines in SZ 14 and station 5 or 6 fighters and a bomber to hit SZ 15 with massive firepower. (Though, lately I’ve had 7 fighters, 2 bombers at the end of Germany 1 because I buy a fighter and a bomber with Germany.)

Now, there is absolutely nothing England can do to escape the trap.  Germany WILL be able to sink the British fleet with Battleship, Transport, 3 Submarines, 6 Fighters and a Bomber on Germany 3.

Even running in all out speed, the American destroyers cannot help by then anyway.  American landings in Algeria would get to Libya on USA 2, just after Germany deserts it to invade Egypt and thus, will not be able to re-open the Canal.

Maybe Russia could reopen it, IF, Russia sent tanks to T-J on Round 1 and I don’t know a single Russian player that’s doing that with Russian tanks on R1.

[Funcioneta]

@Cmdr:

Maybe Russia could reopen it, IF, Russia sent tanks to T-J on Round 1 and I don’t know a single Russian player that’s doing that with Russian tanks on R1.

I send 1 USSR tank to India for protecting UK’s IC (in KJF games), but true, even in this case, another arm to tr-j is useless to open Suez, because Indian IC means no retake Egypt in UK1 (or Japaneses can go heavy and conquer the Indian IC  in J1 :-P )

[Gerbilkit]

@Lmtdconv:

I would say because Germany is massing a navy, even if the transports are used for fodder, they could still easily take out you UK Navy so you have to sure it up with a car and 2 fig.

But if you move all your navy in range of the Baltic fleet to block them, as I believe switch is advocating, and the build a carrier and put your fighters on it, your fleet (and your fighters) will be slaughtered.

Heck even if you build a destroyer to further augment that fleet you will be destroyed.  The German AF is almost entirely in range.  Even if the Bomber is in Libya, he can still make it.  Maybe if there is a fighter in Libya you will be down one, but maybe there won’t be. That still leaves the Germans in really good shape.

They can bring.
5 Fighters
1 Bomber
1 Destroyer
2 Subs
3 Trans

With a combined attack of 26. Count of 12.

The UK fleet consist of.
1 Battleship
1 Destroyer
2 Trans
1 Carrier
2 Fighters

For a defense value of 20, and a count of 8.

The Germans attack, killing on average 4 guys with a 33% chance to kill another one. That means the Btl takes a hit, the trans are out, and the destroyer is dead as well.  Leaving a wounded battleship, a carrier, and two fighters.

The UK player responds, on average killing 3 with a 33% chance to kill another.  The German player can choose between destroying subs or transports depending on how they feel. Say they take out the transports. Germany attacks again, and the UK fleet and fighters are now gone. UK returns fire, they shoot down the remainder of your navy.  The UK just lost their entire fleet, the majority of their airforce, and their entire first turn’s worth of income. Even if the battle swings badly Germany shouldn’t drop more than one fighter. I’d easily drop a German fighter to hold off the brits that long though. For the cost of 24 IPCs you just shot down 88 IPCs worth of UK gear, and slowed down British invasion for 2-3 rounds. IMO that’s worth the cost.

And that was the whole battle with just 5 ftrs, if you bring in all 6 Germany easily can come off with two transports still alive.

There’s no need for a carrier UK1.  The Germans are entirely out of range of your fleet.  It’s a pointless waste of IPCs for the first round.  Build some transports maybe, maybe a couple planes if you want, some more troops. Then next turn you can move in and plop down a carrier if necessary, and you might get Norway in the bargain, and you didn’t just let the Germans trade their fleet for your fleet + AF.

[DarthMaximus]

@Cmdr:

Bunnies:

You are missing the point, in my opinion.

Yes, you CAN have Transport, 2 Fighters, 2 Destroyers and a Carrier in SZ 15 on UK 1 if Germany does not take SZ 15 and Egypt on Germany 1.

And yes, you CAN have 5 infantry + change in Trans-Jordan as well.

However!

Germany can take Egypt on Round 2, build 3 Submarines in SZ 14 and station 5 or 6 fighters and a bomber to hit SZ 15 with massive firepower. (Though, lately I’ve had 7 fighters, 2 bombers at the end of Germany 1 because I buy a fighter and a bomber with Germany.)

Now, there is absolutely nothing England can do to escape the trap.  Germany WILL be able to sink the British fleet with Battleship, Transport, 3 Submarines, 6 Fighters and a Bomber on Germany 3.

Not gonna happen.
Russia will be walking all over Europe and into Berlin.
Turn 1, UK puts Med and IO fleet in Sz 15, UK and US Atlantic fleets go to Sz 12 and on R2 Russia moves Heavy to Ukr.
Germany can’t attack all three.

And an attack on any one of the targets still leaves great options for the Allies.  While a split attack on 2 or more leads to potential disaster for the Germans.

[newpaintbrush]

@Cmdr:

However!

Germany can take Egypt on Round 2, build 3 Submarines in SZ 14 and station 5 or 6 fighters and a bomber to hit SZ 15 with massive firepower. (Though, lately I’ve had 7 fighters, 2 bombers at the end of Germany 1 because I buy a fighter and a bomber with Germany.)

Now, there is absolutely nothing England can do to escape the trap.  Germany WILL be able to sink the British fleet with Battleship, Transport, 3 Submarines, 6 Fighters and a Bomber on Germany 3.

What I think should happen is that either:

1.  UK takes 1 transport 2 destroyers 1 carrier 4 fighters 1 bomber and kills the German fleet, keeping the UK air force and the TransJordan force meaning the Allies retain Africa.  UK loses its fleet, Germany loses its fleet.

2.  UK takes 4 fighters 1 bomber and probably kills the German fleet at a heavy price in air.  If the Allied fleet did NOT land at Algeria on UK1/US1, it probably consolidated either at sea zone 8 southwest of UK or sea zones 1 and 2 (at Eastern Canada and northwest of UK respectively).  If the Allies consolidated at SZ 8, assuming the UK attack on German navy is successful, the UK fleet in the Med can now unite with the SZ 8 fleet plus US fighters for a pretty sizable Allied fleet (probable 4 trns 1 destr 1 btl 1 sub plus 1 carrier 2 destr 2 fighter 1 transport).  The Allies will still probably control Africa and the US shuck to Algeria is supplemented by early UK forces in Trans-Jordan, allowing early contest of Africa as well as the possibility of securing Persia with a UK/US march through Africa, followed by a transport chain from E. Canada to London to Europe giving Russia almost direct reinforcements.

Theres stuff the Germans can do to mess with this plan, but it’s all pretty expensive.

[Jennifer]

How do you plan to do this, Bunnies?

Pretending you have all your fighters and bombers in range of SZ 14, why should Germany care?  They can just unify their fleet in SZ 7 and take England instead.  If you leave your fighters to defend the homeland, then the Germans can kill the SZ 15 fleet.

You seem to think Germany is locked into keeping their fleet in range of 4 fighters, bomber, transport, 2 destroyers and a carrier and they just are not.

Even if they were, what’s to stop Germany from building two Aircraft Carriers and a Submarine on G2?  That would effectively destroy any chance England would have of sinking the fleet on G2.  And no, you would NOT be able to conceal England’s move because England goes after Germany.  You would have to move the two fighters from England to Russia on UK 1 to have them in range. (Maybe W. Russia, but that forces Russia to lock down their infantry, and I don’t think anyone wants to do that when there is an option not too.)

So what we have is 5 possible options for Germany on G2:

1)  England put her fighters in Russia and moved her fleet into SZ 15.

2)  England and America joined forces in SZ 8.  In which case, you better have built some destroyers or something to keep the 5 Fighters, 2 Bombers from sinking the combined allied fleets in SZ 8 and to do that, you would have negated purchases for the protection of England opening up a Sea Lion attempt.

3)  England and America joined forces in SZ 12 allowing the Germans to hit you with Submarine, 5 Fighters, 2 Bombers sinking yout fleet and unifying destroyer, 2 submarines, 2 transports and a battleship in SZ 7.

4)  England invaded SZ 15, but did NOT bring the fighters from England into range of SZ 14 in which case Germany can either attack SZ 8/12 or just unify SZ 7 or build a small set of naval fodder and stationed herself in SZ 14 to sink the British fleet on Germany 3.

5)  England did something smart, retreated everything it could and let Germany control the Med without invasion.

The only SMART option is for England to retreat.  All other options bring death and destruction to either the British fleet OR the British Fleet AND the British Air Force. (No serious American fleet units can be put in range for Germany to wreak havoc on American naval might by that time.)

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Darth:

The idea is to absolutely destroy the British if they get in range.  Since Germany spent just about everything on ground purchases, opting for the Bomber in lieu of the carrier (thus +1 IPC for ground forces not normally spent there on Germany 1) I fail to see how Russia is “walking all over Europe and into Berlin.”

If England does something stupid and gets in range of the Germans, then yes, Germany MAY for go one round of ground purchases.  So they don’t invade in and Russia gets an extra 3 IPC for one round.  However, the British and Americans are no threat allowing Germany to put 100% effort into killing the Russians without worrying about England and America for the next 2 or 3 rounds.

So yes, while you have a nice army in Algeria and a small fleet in SZ 12 and a small fleet in SZ 15, as I showed above, Germany sinks the SZ 12 fleet at the cost of 3 fighters and a submarine (5 fighters, 2 bombers, submarine vs 4 transports, destroyer, battleship, submarine) and unifies her fleet in SZ 7.

What’s England going to do, seriously?  Sure, you have a wee little fleet in SZ 15, cut off from the world and no way to escape.  It’ll be a full two rounds before America and England can liberate Egypt, that’s two rounds for Germany to move the combined fleet back to SZ 13 and then sink the British if they want too.

If you do not stack in SZ 12, Germany can still unify if they want and cost you a pretty penny if you attack them in SZ 7 and then slip back into the Med where they are protected. (Later putting up a carrier if they want to be a real pain.)  That’s assuming, of course, SZ 8 isn’t a really juicy target and, of course, assuming that England is actually defended enough to stop Sea Lion.  2 Transports plus battleship, 5 fighters and 2 bombers is going to be a lot of firepower on England.

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So, as I said, unless someone sees a really big hole somewhere, Germany’s sitting very pretty no matter what England does on UK 1.  There’s nothing the Allies can do to stop Germany from either Unification of their fleet or Sinking the British fleet.  You just don’t have enough equipment on UK 1 and US 1 to make a difference.