AARHE: Lite

[Imperious Leader]

This is the first post in the discussion regarding a light version of AARHE. Here are the topics that can be considered:

I think each of us picks a couple of these each day to remove, sort of like that game called musical chairs. Its easier to know what you don’t like than pick among favorites.

In bold denotes keepers and saved from elimination. Empty spots are eliminated ideas for AARHE lite

Phase 1: Collect Income
Economic Attacks

Convoy Sea Zone
Lend-Lease

Phase 2: Purchase Units and Developments
Variable Industrial Complex Costs
Variable Infantry Costs
Purchase Developments
Scorched Earth

Phase 3: Combat Move
Air Movement
Airborne Drop
Naval Movement
Naval Transport
Naval Occupation
Submarine Movement
Air Missions
Combat Reinforcement
Air Reinforcement: Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)
Land Reinforcement

Canals and Waterways
Terrain
Stalinist Xenophobia
Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis Co-operation

Phase 4: Conduct Combat
Land Combat: Air Units
Air Superiority
Jet Superiority
Anti-Air
Land Combat: Retreat Decision
Defender retreat
Attacker retreat

Land Combat: Sequence
Land Combat: Hit Allocation

Naval Combat: Air units
Jet Supremacy
Anti-Air
Naval Combat: Retreat Decision
Defender Retreat
Attacker Retreat
Submarine Submerge
Break off
Naval Combat: Sequence
Naval Combat: Hit Allocation
Naval Combat: Battleships
Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare
Wolf pack
Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)
Naval Combat: Amphibious Assault
Air Missions
Counter-Air Mission (CA)
Strategic Bombing Raid (SBR)
Ground Interdiction Mission (GI)
Economic attacks

Phase 5: Non-combat Move
Air Movement
Air Transport
Non-combat Reinforcement
Strategic Redeployment (optional)
Other Restrictions

Phase 6: Mobilize New Units
Industrial Complex Mobilization
Victory City Mobilization ( remove)
Build schedule

Phase 7: Develop Weapons

Technology Deployment

[tekkyy]

Yeah individual votes can do either (pick keep or pick remove).

Probably can’t do musical chairs. We’ll just have arguments when I remove something you really want to keep.
Need to evaluate collective preference rather then individually have a stab at it.
This is done with a preference matrix.

You merely voted 11 removes.
We need a way to see your preference.

Do it in groups (remove these 5, next remove these 5…)
Also you could do ordering (1,2,3,4,5…)

[Imperious Leader]

Too hard. Just pick what you hate and add remove.

Each day more will leave and we get a clearer picture.

Prioritize will come latter

[tekkyy]

As I said its up to you to vote keeps or removes.
For my its easier to find what I like the most.

The list has 73 lines but excluding upper level headings, its really just 60 rules.
We aim for lite to be 5 pages, thats about 20 rules.
Very much in the level of complexity as AARe.

Hence I just ask myself what I think add realism to gameplay yet is simple.
And then the rules that are complex or simple but unimportant I don’t mind seeing them go.
Thats the my philosphy.

I guess you don’t HAVE to give preference if you don’t want.
The preference matrix will deal with it for you, beautifully.

Yeah you can add removes over time. In a few days we’ll evaluate.
I’ll post my preference some time.

[tekkyy]

(1) top 5 to keep
(2) next 5 to keep
(3) next 5 to keep

Phase 1: Collect Income
Economic Attacks 1
Production Interruption
Logistics
Spending or Saving IPC
Convoy Sea Zone
Lend-Lease 3

Phase 2: Purchase Units and Developments
Variable Industrial Complex Costs
Variable Infantry Costs
Purchase Developments
Scorched Earth 3

Phase 3: Combat Move
Air Movement 1
Airborne Drop
Naval Movement
Naval Transport
Naval Occupation
Submarine Movement
Air Missions
Combat Reinforcement
Air Reinforcement: Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)
Land Reinforcement
Strait Interdiction
Canals and Waterways
Terrain 3
Stalinist Xenophobia 2
Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis Co-operation

Phase 4: Conduct Combat
Land Combat: Air Units
Air Superiority
Jet Superiority
Anti-Air 1
Land Combat: Retreat Decision
Defender retreat 2
Attacker retreat
Capture of defender’s retreating army
Land Combat: Sequence
Land Combat: Hit Allocation 1
Land Combat: Amphibious Assault Sequence, 1st cycle 3
Naval Combat: Air units
Jet Supremacy
Anti-Air
Naval Combat: Retreat Decision
Defender Retreat
Attacker Retreat
Submarine Submerge 2
Break off
Naval Combat: Sequence
Naval Combat: Hit Allocation 1
Naval Combat: Battleships
Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare
Wolf pack
Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)
Naval Combat: Amphibious Assault
Air Missions
Counter-Air Mission (CA)
Strategic Bombing Raid (SBR) 2
Ground Interdiction Mission (GI)
Economic attacks

Phase 5: Non-combat Move
Air Movement
Air Transport
Non-combat Reinforcement
Strategic Redeployment (optional)
Other Restrictions

Phase 6: Mobilize New Units
Industrial Complex Mobilization 3
Victory City Mobilization 1
Build schedule

Phase 7: DevelopWeapons
Research Progress
Technology Deployment

tekkyy.xls

[Imperious Leader]

(1) top 5 to keep
(2) next 5 to keep
(3) next 5 to keep

Phase 1: Collect Income       
Economic Attacks        1
Production Interruption  2     
Logistics    3   
Spending or Saving IPC  3     
Convoy Sea Zone    1   
Lend-Lease        3

Phase 2: Purchase Units and Developments       
Variable Industrial Complex Costs    3   
Variable Infantry Costs        3
Purchase Developments    2   
Scorched Earth        3

Phase 3: Combat Move       
Air Movement        1
Airborne Drop        1
Naval Movement      1 
Naval Transport      1 
Naval Occupation    1   
Submarine Movement  1     
Air Missions        1
Combat Reinforcement  1     
Air Reinforcement: Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)      1 
Land Reinforcement        2
Strait Interdiction        2
Canals and Waterways    3   
Terrain        3
Stalinist Xenophobia        2
Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis Co-operation      1

Phase 4: Conduct Combat       
Land Combat: Air Units    1   
Air Superiority      1 
Jet Superiority      1 
Anti-Air        1
Land Combat: Retreat Decision  1     
Defender retreat        2
Attacker retreat        1
Capture of defender’s retreating army  3     
Land Combat: Sequence        2
Land Combat: Hit Allocation        1
Land Combat: Amphibious Assault Sequence, 1st cycle        3
Naval Combat: Air units      1 
Jet Supremacy        1
Anti-Air        1
Naval Combat: Retreat Decision    2   
Defender Retreat        1
Attacker Retreat      1 
Submarine Submerge        2
Break off        1
Naval Combat: Sequence    1   
Naval Combat: Hit Allocation        1
Naval Combat: Battleships        2
Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare    1   
Wolf pack        1
Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)    1   
Naval Combat: Amphibious Assault        2
Air Missions       
Counter-Air Mission (CA)        1
Strategic Bombing Raid (SBR)        2
Ground Interdiction Mission (GI)  2     
Economic attacks        1

Phase 5: Non-combat Move       
Air Movement        1
Air Transport        1
Non-combat Reinforcement    1   
Strategic Redeployment (optional)      1 
Other Restrictions        3

Phase 6: Mobilize New Units       
Industrial Complex Mobilization        3
Victory City Mobilization        1
Build schedule        3

Phase 7: DevelopWeapons       
Research Progress        2
Technology Deployment  2

[tekkyy]

you’ve selected a huge number of rules you want to keep (1’s), not directly useful  :-P

but, you’ve selected 13 rules you want to remove (3’s), thats useful  :-)
using that we compare with the 15 rules I want to keep

items that overlap are conflicts:

Lend-Lease
Scorched Earth
Terrain
Land Combat
Industrial Complex Mobilization

I resolve these, by agreeing with you. No comments needed:
Terrain: I guess its not the most important of things. Hence I had it as low prority in my 15 anyway. So I remove as you wish.
Land Combat: Amphibious Assault Sequence, 1st cycle: Its important to have amphibious assault with mostly infantry. But its complex. So I remove as you wish.

These conflicts remain. Comments required:
Lend-Lease: One line and no accounting needed. So why not? It is important as US/UK can’t enter Russian territories.
Scorched Earth: One line and no accounting needed. So why not? “Sorched earth” man.
Industrial Complex Mobilization: Its not simple in that it requires adding up IPC value of the units you are deploying. But you don’t really want Battleships to pop out of anywhere but major industrial centres. I am 50-50 on this. What do you think?

items that do not overlap are consensus between us:
(so we have a first draft)

Phase 1: Collect Income
Economic Attacks
Phase 3: Combat Move
Air Movement
Stalinist Xenophobia
Phase 4: Conduct Combat
Anti-Air
Defender retreat
Land Combat: Hit Allocation
Submarine Submerge
Naval Combat: Hit Allocation
Strategic Bombing Raid (SBR)
Phase 5: Non-combat Move
Phase 6: Mobilize New Units
Victory City Mobilization

After this I’ll evaluate the opposite aspect.
But one step at a time. For now, I wait for the requested comments above.

[Adlertag]

I think terrain and Lend/Lease are the most important issues and we cant have a game without it

My vote:

Terrain 1

Leand/Lease 1

[tekkyy]

regarding terrain as most important issues
you like the defender bonus for mountainous/snowy, or the stacking limit for small, or both?

by the way currently I am trying to have AARHE:Lite as a subset rather than a modification of AARHE
of course, when I put Land Combat: Hit Allocation in the draft list, I mean that only relevant portions of the rule will be copied over to Lite

[Adlertag]

Yes I like a defender bonus for mountain/snowy terrain.

Because up in the Northern Front, the attacker would lose 40 % of his force each time he attacked, because of the diffucult terrain and the cold. This goes for Russia attacking Finland in 1940, Germans attacking Murmansk in 1941 and Russians attacking North Norway in 1944. Just read some books. The cold is a killer. During winter 50 % of the casualties come from frostbite and sickness due to cold. Mountain terrain is actually a fortress, but in this game Norway is tradet back and forth all the time, and that would be impossible in real world. Norway’s mountains is nothing like Polands plains.

[Imperious Leader]

yes yes we know this. its already part of it since day one.

[tekkyy]

IL I am combined our preferences and noted some conflicts
waiting for comments here

@tekkyy:

These conflicts remain. Comments required:

[Imperious Leader]

Phase 1: Collect Income–-- how can this be eliminated?

Economic Attacks— each german naval outside baltic takes 1 ipc off UK/lend lease and each USA/UK sub in pacific takes one ipc from japan… how hard is this to have in LIght?

Phase 3: Combat Move---- yea lets get rid of combat movement. we dont need to move units anymore…
Air Movement— sure planes no longer fly. great
Stalinist Xenophobia---- no allies in USSR. whats hard about that?
Phase 4: Conduct Combat— ok no more combat who needs it.
Anti-Air---- roll 1, then roll 1 again 1=plane dies, 2-3 plane flys back. easy.
Defender retreat----keep it.
Land Combat: Hit Allocation…tanks go against tanks, like for like. basic AARHE
Submarine Submerge----- yes of course
Naval Combat: Hit Allocation----- dump everything except 1) planes hits cant go against subs if another ship is availible, and 2) transports are not soaks

The rest of this must also be included.
Strategic Bombing Raid (SBR)
Phase 5: Non-combat Move
Phase 6: Mobilize New Units
Victory City Mobilization

JUst post the results and from there we cut and edit out. This system of decision is hopeless. This is more like making a cake and deciding how to change the recipe without actually baking the new recipe. Its gotta be trial and error. You cant design like a computer flow chart. :mrgreen:

[tekkyy]

system is going fine
you merely misread my post  :-P
this is so funny  :-D

Air Movement–- sure planes no longer fly. great
Stalinist Xenophobia---- no allies in USSR. whats hard about that?

that list is “consensus between us”
(part of the 15 items I want AND not part of the 13 items you hate)
we ARE having them, don’t worry

I am asking for comments on conflicts
(part of the 15 items I want AND part of the 13 items you hate)

Lend-Lease
Scorched Earth
Terrain
Land Combat: Amphibious Assault
Industrial Complex Mobilization

I’ve given in on terrain and amphibious assault.
You just have to comment on the other 3.

@tekkyy:

These conflicts remain. Comments required:
Lend-Lease: One line and no accounting needed. So why not? It is important as US/UK can’t enter Russian territories.
Scorched Earth: One line and no accounting needed. So why not? “Sorched earth” man.
Industrial Complex Mobilization: Its not simple in that it requires adding up IPC value of the units you are deploying. But you don’t really want Battleships to pop out of anywhere but major industrial centres. I am 50-50 on this. What do you think?

Economic Attacks–- each german naval outside baltic takes 1 ipc off UK/lend lease and each USA/UK sub in pacific takes one ipc from japan… how hard is this to have in LIght?

don’t get confused
Economic Attack is about economic attacks having a round limit
what you mentioned is an alternative Convoy Sea Zone rule you proposed about a month ago
and I have already posted several unrealistic outcomes of that

[Imperious Leader]

Lend-Lease: One line and no accounting needed. So why not? It is important as US/UK can’t enter Russian territories.
========= Lend lease is one line, Xenophobia is another line make it so.

Scorched Earth: One line and no accounting needed. So why not? “Sorched earth” man.
===== you can destroy your factories by declaring it at the start of the combat round, if you still have forces left they are considered sufficient to have blown up the factory. Also, if you have any factories you may also “sell” them back and get 5 IPC to your treasury. This is done at the end of your turn only.

Industrial Complex Mobilization: Its not simple in that it requires adding up IPC value of the units you are deploying. But you don’t really want Battleships to pop out of anywhere but major industrial centres. I am 50-50 on this. What do you think?

++++++Get rid of that 4x the IPC thing. Battleships and carriers can only be created in original sea zones adjacent to your original factories. In all cases you can build total quantity of units of any type in factories equal to the IPC value, and an additional amount of infantry also equal ( example: Territory value with factory can build 3 tanks and 3 infantry. Territory of 3 ipc and no factory can build only 3 infantry if its originally yours or 1/2 rounded down if occupied. Also, you cant build factories in occupied territories, BUT you can capture enemy factories ( also producing at 1/2 rounded down rate)

[Adlertag]

one more + karma from me

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

========= Lend lease is one line, Xenophobia is another line make it so.

ok cool

===== you can destroy your factories by declaring it at the start of the combat round, if you still have forces left they are considered sufficient to have blown up the factory. Also, if you have any factories you may also “sell” them back and get 5 IPC to your treasury. This is done at the end of your turn only.

hehe thats pretty much the existing rule
so lets use the existing?
(existing rule is declare in purchase phase, destroy in mobilization phase…new rule is declare in combat phase, destroy at end of turn)

though we shouldn’t be adding new things
so lets not have the 5 IPC sell thing (thats more of IC relocation rather than sorched earth idea) nor requirement for force (this is your turn and your territory, after all)

++++++Get rid of that 4x the IPC thing. Battleships and carriers can only be created in original sea zones adjacent to your original factories. In all cases you can build total quantity of units of any type in factories equal to the IPC value, and an additional amount of infantry also equal ( example: Territory value with factory can build 3 tanks and 3 infantry. Territory of 3 ipc and no factory can build only 3 infantry if its originally yours or 1/2 rounded down if occupied. Also, you cant build factories in occupied territories, BUT you can capture enemy factories ( also producing at 1/2 rounded down rate)

ok nice and simple Mobilization rule, we’ll use it to replace both IC and VC Mobilization rule
I don’t think we need to disallow building IC at enemy territories though
limit of 1/2 round down is fine I think

Alright probably resolved all conflicts.

Updated draft:

Phase 1: Collect Income
Economic Attacks
Lend-Lease
Phase 2: Purchase
Sorched Earth
Phase 3: Combat Move
Air Movement
Stalinist Xenophobia
Phase 4: Conduct Combat
Anti-Air
Defender retreat
Land Combat: Hit Allocation
Submarine Submerge
Naval Combat: Hit Allocation
Strategic Bombing Raid
Phase 5: Non-combat Move
Phase 6: Mobilize New Units
Mobilization Limit* (new)

Time for next step. Working in the opposite direction.
You gave 37 1’s. (items you want)
Can you have a look the 37 again and give me 15?
It shouldn’t be hard for you now that several items you wanted is now already on the draft.

[Imperious Leader]

Quote
===== you can destroy your factories by declaring it at the start of the combat round, if you still have forces left they are considered sufficient to have blown up the factory. Also, if you have any factories you may also “sell” them back and get 5 IPC to your treasury. This is done at the end of your turn only.
hehe thats pretty much the existing rule
so lets use the existing?
(existing rule is declare in purchase phase, destroy in mobilization phase…new rule is declare in combat phase, destroy at end of turn)

ok keep it then.

though we shouldn’t be adding new things
so lets not have the 5 IPC sell thing (thats more of IC relocation rather than sorched earth idea) nor requirement for force (this is your turn and your territory, after all)

ok just thinking monopoly house sell back rule. nevermind.

Quote
++++++Get rid of that 4x the IPC thing. Battleships and carriers can only be created in original sea zones adjacent to your original factories. In all cases you can build total quantity of units of any type in factories equal to the IPC value, and an additional amount of infantry also equal ( example: Territory value with factory can build 3 tanks and 3 infantry. Territory of 3 ipc and no factory can build only 3 infantry if its originally yours or 1/2 rounded down if occupied. Also, you cant build factories in occupied territories, BUT you can capture enemy factories ( also producing at 1/2 rounded down rate)

ok nice and simple Mobilization rule, we’ll use it to replace both IC and VC Mobilization rule
I don’t think we need to disallow building IC at enemy territories though
limit of 1/2 round down is fine I think

ok fine…

Alright probably resolved all conflicts.

Updated draft:

Phase 1: Collect Income
Economic Attacks
Lend-Lease
Phase 2: Purchase
Sorched Earth
Phase 3: Combat Move
Air Movement
Stalinist Xenophobia
Phase 4: Conduct Combat
Anti-Air
Defender retreat
Land Combat: Hit Allocation
Submarine Submerge
Naval Combat: Hit Allocation
Strategic Bombing Raid
Phase 5: Non-combat Move
Phase 6: Mobilize New Units
Mobilization Limit* (new)

Time for next step. Working in the opposite direction.
You gave 37 1’s. (items you want)
Can you have a look the 37 again and give me 15?
It shouldn’t be hard for you now that several items you wanted is now already on the draft.

ok fine.

[Imperious Leader]

Economic Attacks        1

Phase 3: Combat Move       
Air Movement        1
Airborne Drop        1
Naval Movement      1 
Naval Transport      1 
Naval Occupation    1   
Submarine Movement  1     
Air Missions        1

Air Reinforcement: Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)      1

Phase 4: Conduct Combat       
Land Combat: Air Units    1 
Air Superiority      1 
Jet Superiority      1 
Anti-Air        1
Land Combat: Retreat Decision  1

Attacker retreat        1

Land Combat: Hit Allocation        1

Naval Combat: Air units      1 
Jet Supremacy        1
Anti-Air        1

Defender Retreat        1
Attacker Retreat      1

Naval Combat: Hit Allocation        1

Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare    1   
Wolf pack        1
Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)    1

Air Missions       
Counter-Air Mission (CA)        1

Economic attacks        1

Phase 5: Non-combat Move       
Air Movement        1
Air Transport        1
Non-combat Reinforcement    1 
Strategic Redeployment (optional)      1

I cant remove any more than these. they are too solid.

[tekkyy]

ok you’ve cut down to 31 items

these 6 are actually already in:

Phase 1: Economic Attacks        1
Phase 3: Air Movement        1
Phase 4: Land Combat: Anti-Air        1
Phase 4: Land Combat: Defender Retreat        1
Phase 4: Land Combat: Hit Allocation        1
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Hit Allocation        1

so 25 left
from those, these 15 are simple yet major in gameplay
so we’ll have them:

Phase 3: Airborne Drop        1
Phase 3: Air Reinforcement: Defensive Air Support Mission (DAS)      1
Phase 3: Naval Transport      1 
Phase 3: Naval Occupation    1   
Phase 4: Retreat Decision  1     
Phase 4: Land Combat:  Attacker Retreat      1
Phase 4: Land Combat: Air Units    1 
Phase 4: Land Combat: Air Units: Air Superiority      1 
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Attacker retreat        1
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Air units      1 
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Air        1
Phase 4: Wolf pack        1
Phase 4: Economic attacks        1
Phase 5: Air Transport        1
Phase 5: Non-combat Reinforcement    1

the remaining 10 I find are either complex or not major
you shall defend them, or we simplify or remove them

lets hope we keep it “lite” !
we want a small subset, not AARHE with just a few rules removed

Phase 3: Naval Movement      1 -> might be a bit complex for lite to roll dice even before combat
Phase 3: Submarine Movement  1  -> might be a bit complex for lite to roll dice even before combat
Phase 4: Land Combat: Air Units: Jet Superiority      1 -> not major, not core to gameplay
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Air Units: Jet Supremacy        1 -> not major, not core to gameplay
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Submarine Warfare    1 -> AARHE hit allocation already sorts out a lot, we could remove this paragraph, which’ll merely removes first cycle bonus
Phase 4: Naval Combat: Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)    1 -> a bit complex for lite, we don’t want players to have to allocate air/naval units to ASW resulting in a complex combat seqeunce

Phase 3: Air Missions        1
Phase 4: Air Missions          1
Phase 4: Counter-Air Mission (CA)        1
-> I think “air missions” sounds complex for lite, could do with just the 2 most important moves, SBR and DAS, SBR rule is already in and that describes the AA and dogfight before SBR rolls

Phase 5: Air Movement        1  -> lets just use OOB for NCM air movement? NCM air is not that major
Phase 5: Strategic Redeployment (optional)      1  -> this is optional in the first place