I do mine with tactical bombers….gives them target selection on a 3 or less…1 to 1 ratio…casualty immediately removed
I’m planning on using my armoured car as a scout unit as well. What I was going to do is pair it one to one with artillery to boost the arty +1 on attack and defense. This is because they would be able to give locations of enemy troops as you say and relay them to arty so they can target them. I like your idea of moving cavalry to infantry class. I also thought about maybe not penalizing them for attacking into mountains but so far can’t justify it in any way. Really I’m just trying to differentiate the 2 units as you are. If you don’t throw them a bone then why not just buy the armoured car?
So you would pair recon with arty and infantry/motorized 1/1/1. This would also be a great way to diversify the unit count among your armies. The Tac bomber idea from leatherneck is good as well, though you may need to limit how many times first strike can be used in that scenario, as stacking the pair can theoretically destroy your enemy without giving them the chance to fight back.
Maybe it would make sense to combine a bunch of these benefits and lower some of the attack/defense values so this becomes more of a support unit vs anything you can reasonably rely on to clear out enemy units?
@Cornelius:
1) Armored Car: Acts a a Scouting/Reconnaissance unit.
a. **The presence of an armored car available in a battle negates 1 target selection from the enemy player, the first round of combat, allowing opposing player to select casualty: i:e: First round of combat, Attacker Attacks, Defender defends, Defender rolls a target select roll, Attacker chooses casualty due to presence of armored car.
The concept is that recon would be able to detect and report on formations, troop movements and concealed field guns and other entrenchments prior to battle. Once battle begins, all bets are off. Not sure whether the negation should be for the entire battle or just the first round. This benefit would not affect target selection from aircraft.
Really like all of your points. Only change I would make is. Eliminate frirst strike instead of a target selection 1:1 versus enemy artillery. Recon would locate the artillery thus you would be able to strike back.
Infantry class for cavalry would allow them frirst round attack in an amphibious assault attacking at 3 instead of 2, paired with artillery and infantry access to transport limits.
These would all be clear benefits and differences between the two units.
Nice work! Great idea on this thread.**
@Rank:
@Cornelius:
1) Armored Car: Acts a a Scouting/Reconnaissance unit.
a. **The presence of an armored car available in a battle negates 1 target selection from the enemy player, the first round of combat, allowing opposing player to select casualty: i:e: First round of combat, Attacker Attacks, Defender defends, Defender rolls a target select roll, Attacker chooses casualty due to presence of armored car.
The concept is that recon would be able to detect and report on formations, troop movements and concealed field guns and other entrenchments prior to battle. Once battle begins, all bets are off. Not sure whether the negation should be for the entire battle or just the first round. This benefit would not affect target selection from aircraft.
Negating artillery first strike 1:1 would certainly give the unit more utility and is probably more applicable to what recon/scout units would do.
If we give the scout unit this ability, would we scale back some of combat values and/or adjust cost to purchase?
Really like all of your points. Only change I would make is. Eliminate frirst strike instead of a target selection 1:1 versus enemy artillery. Recon would locate the artillery thus you would be able to strike back.
Infantry class for cavalry would allow them frirst round attack in an amphibious assault attacking at 3 instead of 2, paired with artillery and infantry access to transport limits.
These would all be clear benefits and differences between the two units.
Nice work! Great idea on this thread.**
I actually brought this up a couple months ago at the Global War Game site.
You’re right in that their abilities are the same there. There are a couple of differences though:
If using the Fighting Croatia Expansion/Partisans, Cavalry are one of the units that are capable of targeting Partisans, while armored cars can not.
Another thing to point out is Cavalry can be 1:1 supported by artillery but Armored Cars cannot.
So by the letter of these two exceptions, Cavalry are actually BETTER than armored cars, in my opinion.
The HBG guys did answer my post though:
“Both are 3/2s for a reason – that being they represent smaller, divisional scale units – not large formations – but their mobility gives them an advantage.
Armored Cars are armor-class units (and Cavs are for transports). Cavalry have an advantage being used against Partisans in the upcoming Partisans expansion and also as people pointed out an armored car could be target-selected.
I would say that cav is better as they stand now but I could see armored cars having some kind of ability to follow a blitzkrieg that cavalry could not- the Germans used them to screen and probe pretty effectively which would make them reasonably good for casualties in a blitz.”
I think he mis-quotes the rules a couple of time:
I believe Cavalry are also considered armor, and so therefore they can also be target-selected.
He mentions Armored Cars potentially helping in blitz situations. To my knowledge, armored cars cannot blitz, and are no different than Cavalry in that regard.
Giving Armored Cars a blitzing ability would create a good enough difference between the two units to make them both worth buying. Armored Cars could blitz, but Cavalry can target Partisans. Both unique abilities.
As it stands though, I really see no reason to ever buy Armored Cars, unless I’m missing something someone else can point out.
I actually brought this up a couple months ago at the Global War Game site.
You’re right in that their abilities are the same there. There are a couple of differences though:
If using the Fighting Croatia Expansion/Partisans, Cavalry are one of the units that are capable of targeting Partisans, while armored cars can not.
Another thing to point out is Cavalry can be 1:1 supported by artillery but Armored Cars cannot.
So by the letter of these two exceptions, Cavalry are actually BETTER than armored cars, in my opinion.
The HBG guys did answer my post though:
“Both are 3/2s for a reason – that being they represent smaller, divisional scale units – not large formations – but their mobility gives them an advantage.
Armored Cars are armor-class units (and Cavs are for transports). Cavalry have an advantage being used against Partisans in the upcoming Partisans expansion and also as people pointed out an armored car could be target-selected.
I would say that cav is better as they stand now but I could see armored cars having some kind of ability to follow a blitzkrieg that cavalry could not- the Germans used them to screen and probe pretty effectively which would make them reasonably good for casualties in a blitz.”I think he mis-quotes the rules a couple of time:
I believe Cavalry are also considered armor, and so therefore they can also be target-selected.
He mentions Armored Cars potentially helping in blitz situations. To my knowledge, armored cars cannot blitz, and are no different than Cavalry in that regard.
Giving Armored Cars a blitzing ability would create a good enough difference between the two units to make them both worth buying. Armored Cars could blitz, but Cavalry can target Partisans. Both unique abilities.
As it stands though, I really see no reason to ever buy Armored Cars, unless I’m missing something someone else can point out.
I didn’t even notice this… thanks for bringing it to light.
The problem is more the utility of the armored car vs Cavalry.
It still like the idea of converting the armored car into a scout unit, or maybe just introduce Puma and M24 Chaffee sculpts… or could even use Jeep Willys and Kubelwagen.
What do you mean by the utility of it?
Also, I don’t follow on making it a scout unit. What would that entail in gaming mechanics? Like a first strike ability?
Here are the house rules I use for a d12 system:
Cavalry attack at 1, defend at 1, and move 2. On land, they may Entrench. (I use Der Kunstler’s entrenchment rules.)
Cavalry may blitz. You know what that is. They may also use the Charge! feature, which means they attack at 3 if the number of attacking cavalry is greater than or equal to the number of defending light, regular, or colonial infantry. Cavalry have the Flank! feature, which means that if a player has cavalry units in an attack and an opponent has no defending cavalry, the attacker can roll an extra die during the first cycle of combat. Finally, cavalry may use the Retreat! feature, which means they may choose to retreat after each completed cycle of combat rather than stay and fight. On the attack, if paired 1:1 with Artillery, cavalry may attack at 2. Cavalry cost 3 IPP.
Armored cars attack at 2, defend at 2, and move 2. Armored cars may blitz, flank, and retreat. They also have the Reconnaissance feature, which allows them to pair with artillery on a 1:1 basis to re-roll one die during each cycle of combat. Armored Cars cost 5 IPP.
What do you mean by the utility of it?
Also, I don’t follow on making it a scout unit. What would that entail in gaming mechanics? Like a first strike ability?
Since the armored has identical values as Cavalry in combination with Cavalry pairing with artillery and being able to engage partisans, there is no reason to buy armored cars. If armored cars had some additional utility to their attack/defense values then this could overcome that problem.
I like some of the ideas regarding boosting artillery attack values (maybe limit it to first round of combat) in order to overcome this issue. I was then thinking it would make more sense to use more accurate sculpts for a “recon” unit. Plus, a PUMA scout would be pretty cool :-)
If you have ideas for units that you would like to see added to the HBG store then check out this video and post suggestions in the comments section. There’s no guarantee that they will be added but it’s worth a try.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UngickVBJo
Got it, I see what you mean! Yea, it really is something they should fix. As it is, I really don’t see a point at all to buying armored cars, besides adding flavor to the map!
