It seems to be a popular view that Japan is wasting its money if it buys a complex before it has maxed out the first one (i.e. is transporting 8 units/turn to the mainland). However, I am of the opinion that 2 tran 1 IC–this is assuming $1 bid to Japan–is the optimal J1 purchase for getting units to the mainland quickly. There was an old thread (sorry, I couldn’t find the link on my first search and I’m too lazy to look harder) that had some calculations to this effect, but for the short version, consider:
—If you build 3 tran on J1, you can put 8 units in Asia on your second turn. However, with 2 tran 1 IC you can get 9 units there: 6 from your three transports, and three more from your complex. With a 2 IC purchase it’s down to 8 again, one from your transport and 6 from your complexes. (I’m assuming throughout that the UK killed your transport in SZ 59 so that you only have one to start with.) So if you’re trying to get as many units to Asia on J2 as you can, 2 tran 1 IC is the way to go.
—4 tran on J1, using a bid of $2, is also a good way to start fast. However, in this case your capacity outstrips your income; it will be a couple rounds before you can actually get new units fast enough to keep your transports busy. The 2 tran 1 IC buy is better optimized at keeping your production/transport capacity matched up with the number of units you can afford to produce. In particular, a 4 tran J1 purchase enables you to put as many as 10 units into Asia on J2 if you clean out Philippines, East Indies, Okinawa, and Wake, but then you run out of island units and can only make up to 8 new ones in Japan. So you get a lot of inf on J2 but it’s more of an anomaly, where the 2 tran 1 IC buy gives you a smoother and more continuous startup.
—As far as location, I like FIC the best. Kwang is farther from Moscow than either Fic or Man, so if you’re trying to put pressure on the Russians quickly you want either Fic or Man. You can supply plenty of troops to the northern area from Japan itself, so the complex is needed more on the southern end. Plus it enables you to get to Africa, Caucasus, etc better.
—So far I’ve been assuming KGF. In KJF you should certainly be a bit more hesitant about getting factories up quickly. However, I’ve found that a FIC complex, which is always where I build on J1 if I build a factory at all, can be very helpful in KJF. Ideally when defending against an American fleet you want to defend as far out as possible, e.g. with a fleet in the Caroline or even Solomon islands. However, if you’re forced to fall back, FIC is a great fallback point. The key thing about it is that it borders all three of your valuable islands. If you get in trouble you can fall back to SZ 36 and build more ships there to join your retreating fleet. Often this will be enough to prevent the Americans from taking any of those expensive islands right away. If your only factory is in Japan you’re forced to keep your navy farther north to incorporate the new builds, and the Americans have an easier time getting to the southern islands.
Another look at the SAF IC
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@Cmdr:
The med fleet only siphons off two German units. To counter that, you need 4 allied units. Sure, the allies can afford it, but Africa’s a second rate theater of operations, better to lock it down HARD and FAST with the Allies if you can, and that means killing the German fleet.
Exactly. Germany will always get a foothold. Just don’t let it become a stronghold. Sink the fleet before it can be used to reinforce Germany’s position and you can focus the US’s massive income on juicier targets, like Japan or Europe, instead of chasing Germany around Africa. And definitely do it before the Japanese can back them up. It’s far cheaper and easier to face off with the Axis in Africa separately than combined.
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When I think of an IC in SAF, I would say no…!
Isolated this is not an good solution.
SA only gives 2 ipc, and to buy 2 tanks each rnd. is not good spending.
2 inf or 1 inf + 1 tank/art each rnd, will that help you secure Afr for a small amount, where ipc’s can be spend better elsewhere?
But with 15 ipc for IC + 6 ipc or 7/8 ipc each rnd, is this enough to keep out the Germans, and also Jap later in the game?If an IC SA is seen as a part of a bigger picture, then this move might become profitable although I still think
it’s suboptimal.
U-505, if you can find a way of combining an IC in SA with no need for US in Afr, after US1 or US2,
and if allies close the med in AE, then you can use all UK+US forces in the north atlantic, threatening Berlin with a heavy 1-2 punch,
as well as US helps Russia along with UK, now that can really threaten the G kalia stack, which seems to be one of
the better strats for G. -
That is exactly the goal of the strategy. Trade away any resistance in Asia to allow the UK to secure Africa almost single-handedly and free up the US to go after more important targets.
Obviously it will have bugs that need to be worked out in real games. I’ll never say that any strategy is foolproof, but I’m nearly convinced that an SAF IC is not only possible but can be very helpful in a KJF if not also in KGF.
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Anyone think about a German build of another transport in SZ 14? Dumping 4 ground units into Africa seems like a lot, but Africa is also worth 4 ground units in value AND if you can get England and America to focus on Africa, who’s protecting Russia?
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Anyone think about a German build of another transport in SZ 14? Dumping 4 ground units into Africa seems like a lot, but Africa is also worth 4 ground units in value AND if you can get England and America to focus on Africa, who’s protecting Russia?
That’s something almost everyone has thought about, but it is difficult, because you have to build protection for it or keep your bb/tran in that seazone that turn. That means you’re probably not offloading into Libya unless you want to get chewed up by the defense there or the Allied units in Algeria. Plus, you’re still going to attacked by 3 figs 1 bom from the US at some point, and the extra doesn’t help against that. It just siphons more units from Europe.
Obviously it will have bugs that need to be worked out in real games. I’ll never say that any strategy is foolproof, but I’m nearly convinced that an SAF IC is not only possible but can be very helpful in a KJF if not also in KGF.
Man strategies really do come full cycle, don’t they? Peter Morrison’s movies posted over two years ago advocate double ICs; one in UoSA and one in India to contest both Asia and Africa. He also advocated running away with the Baltic fleet. Interesting how old ideas get reincarnated like this.
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Yea, because strategies come around to defeat the new “wisdom”.
Everyone said KJF was impossible, but that’s hardly been the case. Hard, but not impossible.
Everyone said Russia and half of England couldn’t box Germany in alone, but that’s almost easy now.
Everyone said Africa was hopeless for the Allies.
Everyone said Japan should reinforce Germany in the med to keep Africa
Everyone has been wrong at one point or another.
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Everyone said KJF was impossible, but that’s hardly been the case. Hard, but not impossible.
You continue to create strawmen. No one said it was impossible, just not optimal given normal dice.
Everyone said Russia and half of England couldn’t box Germany in alone, but that’s almost easy now.
You still can’t. You clearly haven’t shown that yet.
Everyone said Africa was hopeless for the Allies.
Oh really, is that why the Axis gets a bid?
Everyone said Japan should reinforce Germany in the med to keep Africa
That’s certainly one way to do it.
Everyone has been wrong at one point or another.
Of course, but that’s a pretty useless statement, that would be like saying the sun is hot. Why not give it some relevance, such as the sun is x degrees but due to x distance and the atmosphere we can manage to survive?
Here is relevance: some people are less wrong than others, and that’s how the same people continue to get wins.
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@Cmdr:
Everyone said Africa was hopeless for the Allies.
Everyone has been wrong at one point or another.
How many times do people need to play revised before they understand that Afr belongs to allies, usually?
That is if allies want it.And the KJF, Jen, I’m gonna write a letter to the American Psychiatric Association (APA)
in order to get the KJF acknowledged as a decease,
so KJF will be listed as a behavioral disorder in the DSM V, and the ICD-11. :roll: -
do it and attack the german med fleet with 1 fig, 1 bmb.
Then 70*% of the cases at least the trn sinks and in 46% of cases both trn/bb are killed.
Harder for germany to put more people in africa, at the least he´s delayed for 1 turn.
If UK and US moves jointly to Algeria they can kill the bb and any ship germany buys as a replacement.
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This isn’t a thread about the validity of KJF. Needless to say, I’m currently running 67% wins 33% losses in KJF with two apparent wins on the horizon, barring abnormal dice.
Anyway, back to the TOPIC, I don’t really see S. Africa Complex being very useful in KJF. I see it very useful in KGF though. And I could see how it would help box in Germany in a KJF situation, I’ve just never actually needed it to beat Germany into a box with just England and Russia.
Germany is quite easily contained with a few artillery purchases by Russia and some fighters from England.
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Needless to say, I’m currently running 67% wins 33% losses in KJF with two apparent wins on the horizon, barring abnormal dice.
Win rate alone doesn’t validate the strategy. Your victory over me hasn’t even begun to dent my view on the strategy. I simply made a mistake in exposing the capital which could have easily been avoided, and you made a mistake in exposing Caucasus, but the difference is that if we both avoided those errors, that Japan is extremely tough to crack and has lots of income while Russia was boxed in on both sides with low income. I just didn’t see the possibility of the KJF.
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@Cmdr:
Germany is quite easily contained with a few artillery purchases by Russia and some fighters from England.
Germany contained without US?
Play me Jennifer, plz :-P -
@Cmdr:
Germany is quite easily contained with a few artillery purchases by Russia and some fighters from England.
Germany contained without US?
Play me Jennifer, plz :-PIt’s not so hard to imagine. Germany earns 40 IPC. Russia + England earn 54 IPC. Japan earns 30 IPC. America earns 42 IPC. In both cases, the axis start out with a -15 IPC detriment. From there it’s just a matter of positioning yourself so Germany cannot break out anywhere.
Though I might consider a KJF with the IC in S. Africa. Never even tried that one!
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If I saw a SAF IC UK1 as the axis, I would pretty much feint africa and use the med fleet to push after Russia underneath. The axis should ignore this investment by focusing on Russia exclusively as fast as possible. I also would most certainly look to destroy any allied atlantic transports if I ever could.
I think the Germany trying to fight/take africa is like power on power and unless this was Russia where the axis can do a 2 on 1, that is a losing proposition.
So in short, Africa with a UK SAF IC, I’d fake interest, pull out after UK has invested some money and whallop Russia.
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The trick, of course, being that you have to be able to pull out.
If there’s significant threat to Africa, you may not have anything TOO pull out, ya know?
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@Cmdr:
The trick, of course, being that you have to be able to pull out.
If there’s significant threat to Africa, you may not have anything TOO pull out, ya know?
stack up on AES with 4-6 units and ftrs… then bail.
good thing wuold be to add another tpt sz14 on G2 if possible, really looking like you’re gonna put up a fight… move sz15 on G3, then empty G4 onward…
Hello Ukraine
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That could work, Axis, if you move that fleet to take India, Australia, New Zealand and Madagascar for Germany.
Darth likes to do that with Germany anyway, I love to get away with it as well!
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I played a multi player game not very long ago, (somewhat decent players) where G took a big part of Afr, Madagascar, Australia,
N.Z., and Hawaii !! Don’t think they made it to Alaska… :lol:
Germany didn’t win the game though :-) -
Trying this out in an AARe game right now. I’ll report back my findings.
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@Cmdr:
Trying this out in an AARe game right now. I’ll report back my findings.
Can you link the thread, i’d like to take a look.
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