How to knock Italy out early?

[Caesar-Seriona]

The only way I can see an early Italy knockout is to destroy the Italian fleet and park submarines in SZ 97 and choke out Italy that way. Italy is a strange nation, I am not sure why the creators made SZ 97 such a weakness for Italy but its the only nation in the game where you can straight up starve the country and destroy it without actually destroying it. I’d say bring a surface fleet on it too but then you have to understand that Germany will sink it with what air power it has left so you can argue trading the UK med fleet against the Germany air force is an outright victory or pyrrhic for the allies. However as far as ignoring Italian colonies, I can agree with ignoring Northern Africa but with Ethopia, no. You don’t want Italy winning that fight because it gives reason for Italy to go after Egypt or at the very least, go after Africa territories or if UK isn’t smart enough, Italy could try to march on South Africa.

[simon33]

The problem with hitting Ethiopia UK1 is that if the attack goes bad, you can’t retreat your amphibious forces so you have to lose them, then your remaining forces will die on a counter attack. Also, it doesn’t allow you to build an IC on Persia UK2.

It’s too big a risk for no real upside. Those troops will be able to be cleaned up in time. If you do a Taranto , they can’t do enough to take Italy unless that attack goes bad.

[Caesar-Seriona]

@simon33:

The problem with hitting Ethiopia UK1 is that if the attack goes bad, you can’t retreat your amphibious forces so you have to lose them, then your remaining forces will die on a counter attack. Also, it doesn’t allow you to build an IC on Persia UK2.

It’s too big a risk for no real upside. Those troops will be able to be cleaned up in time. If you do a Taranto , they can’t do enough to take Italy unless that attack goes bad.

Yes however I usually bring down a Mech from Egypt and use the infantry from Sudan and then bring an infantry and artillery from Alexandria and then invade Ethopia by sea so those Italian units are being hit from the UK cruiser with two infantry, artillery, and mech. It basically is a win for UK, I have only lost this fight once. Depending on what Japan does, I might also bring two infantry from India to back this force up.

[simon33]

I make that fight 79% to win, 18% to lose.

It isn’t as devastating to lose as Taranto is. Even so, leaving the Italians alive in Ethiopia has a minimal effect on the game.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

There is minimal need to take Rome once you are convoy raiding the country to death.  Once you have taken out the Med fleet and the African forces, UK can rapidly cripple Italy.  Alternatively the US can start sneaking subs past Gibraltar.

[Caesar-Seriona]

Yeah that convoy zone is really a great game changer, I never had to invade Rome once ever because why?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Caesar:

The only way I can see an early Italy knockout is to destroy the Italian fleet and park submarines in SZ 97 and choke out Italy that way. Italy is a strange nation, I am not sure why the creators made SZ 97 such a weakness for Italy but its the only nation in the game where you can straight up starve the country and destroy it without actually destroying it. I’d say bring a surface fleet on it too but then you have to understand that Germany will sink it with what air power it has left so you can argue trading the UK med fleet against the Germany air force is an outright victory or pyrrhic for the allies. However as far as ignoring Italian colonies, I can agree with ignoring Northern Africa but with Ethopia, no. You don’t want Italy winning that fight because it gives reason for Italy to go after Egypt or at the very least, go after Africa territories or if UK isn’t smart enough, Italy could try to march on South Africa.

Japan can also be convoyed to death, although it is much harder.

[WILD BILL]

@taamvan:

Taranto
1 DD 1 CA 1 CV 1 TB 3 FIG 1 SB   9 hits

Taranto Lite (this potentially preserves the carrier but reduces chances of success)
1 DD 1 CA 1 TB 2 FIG 1 SB (+1-2 SUB from bid)  7 hits

Super-Taranto attack SZ 95 instead, (not optimal but still fun)
1 DD 2 CA 1 TB 3 FIG 1 SB (1 CV)  10 hits…

Taranto sets back out Italy with very high odds, so its a “always do” opening move.   UK is substantially weakened (only 1 fighter remains home during the most aggressive attack).      In most situations, the carrier and 2 fighters remain alive, they are stuck in SZ 97 and get destroyed during the retal.    Post-retal, Italy has virtually no sea forces left.

I dont attack Tobruk on the same turn, as it stretches UK too thin, but if you accomplish both, or even just Taranto, Italy can’t really win the Africa game long-term.  It can’t really recover a useful navy in time to face off with a much bigger UK/USA combined fleet.

This isn’t really the same as knocking Italy out, but its a limited power without money or ships.   If you put a lot of pressure from below, Germany has to divert forces to protect Italy, which is a win for the Allies.    As a result, smart money uses the last remaining transport to rescue the armor out of Africa, potentially giving you 4 to work with I2 (N Italy, Albania, Tobruk rescue, and the one you bought).   This gives the Italians a sweet mobile “can-opener” that roams around the Russian steppe, knocking out blockers.

taamvan, no disrespect, but I don’t think your Super-Taranto attack on sz95 is possible with what you posted above (w/o bid units). You can’t use your Egyptian destroyer, cruiser or carrier in the battle because they can’t move past the Italian surface ships in sz96 and 97. The only UK ship that can hit sz 95 on UK1 is the Gib cruiser if it is still alive (w/o bid ships). You could use the carrier as a potential landing place for the planes by also attacking sz96 (can assume to win the sz96 battle) so your carrier could potentially NCM in allowing London/Gib planes to attack sz95, but the carrier couldn’t be used in combat phase.

[Argothair]

You generally need to win in East Africa before you can collect your “All original territories” national objective as the UK, no? If you don’t attack ethiopia, it’s easy for Italy to poach Kenya or British Somalia. Ethiopia is still a lower priority than Taranto or Persia, but I rank Ethiopia slightly above Tovruk. Ethiopia has better odds and a bigger payoff.

[taamvan]

Oh thanks bill, I didn’t configure that attack, and we have been working with some tweaked setups so I’m pretty sure either dave pulled a fast one on me or he proposed sending a different set of stuff than I described.  1 DD and 1 CA less, for sure, which is only a fight against the 5 Axis hits with no DD.

[taamvan]

EDIT Per Wild Bill’s Point;

Super-Taranto attack SZ 95 instead, (not optimal and probably not even fun but to lay out whats possible in an open)

1 CA 1 TB 3 FIG 1 SB (1 CV)  with 6 hits vs 5 hits.