@SS:
Heavy Artilliary
C6 A3 D2 M1 +1 support 1-1 per inf. Can fire into next territory but then can only M1 on non combat. Or move 1 in combat but doesnt get next territory shot. You could have If you roll a 1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire. Cant hit planes period.
No love for Coastal Defense as an ability? Also, not being allowed to move in Combat Movement and do a Long Range Attack nerfs Heavy Artillery’s attack utility. This method would leave Long Range Attack strictly as a counter-attack ability. With an Attack of 3, you do get the strike value of a Fighter for roughly 1/2 the price.
How about one of these revamps:
@Offensive-Minded:
Unit Name IPC Cost ATK DEF MOVE Notes
Heavy Artillery 6 3 2 1 Can only hit Ground Units. Can increase attack for Infantry, etc., attack by support. See below for Long Range Attack rules.
Heavy Artillery - The King of Battle. These are the truly big guns, massed to support the main thrust of an army. These are not anti-aircraft guns and therefore can not hit aircraft. Can provide supporting fire for Infantry and any other Infantry-like units during an attack, increasing their Attack by 1. This support is for one (1) Infantry per each Heavy Artillery unit involved in the battle that is not conducting Long Range Attack and is in addition to the Heavy Artillery’s own attack roll. Can also conduct Long Range Attack - See below for more.Long Range Attack: Support the attack into the next country over, without going into the next country over. This can be combined with the Heavy Artillery unit’s own movement (e.g. the Heavy Artillery unit may move from one territory to the next and then attack into a territory bordering the new territory as a part of a greater attack into the territory in question.) When doing so, the Heavy Artillery unit in question in not allowed to be used as a casualty in the battle - if a Heavy Artillery unit doing Long Range Attack is the only unit left, the attack is over and has failed.
This would be an offensive-minded re-tuning. Keeps the combination Combat Move & Long Range Attack ability in the same turn, while paring Artillery Support from 2 Inf per H. Arty to 1 Inf per H. Arty. Additionally, keeps the attack value at 3 while trimming the defense value to 2 and removing the Coastal Defense ability.
@Defensive-Minded:
Unit Name IPC Cost ATK DEF MOVE Notes
Heavy Artillery 6 2 3 1 Can only hit Ground Units. Can increase attack for Infantry, etc., attack by support. See below for Coastal Defense rules.
Heavy Artillery - The King of Battle. These are the truly big guns, massed to support the main thrust of an army. These are not anti-aircraft guns and therefore can not hit aircraft. Can provide supporting fire for Infantry and any other Infantry-like units in the defense, increasing their Defense by 1. This support can be provided for up to two (2) supported units per each Heavy Artillery unit in the defending territory and is in addition to the Heavy Artillery’s own defense roll. Can also conduct Coastal Defense - See below for more.Coastal Defense: Support the defense of the territory the Heavy Artillery unit is located, in the face of an Amphibious Invasion. As Battleships (and optionally, Cruisers) get to conduct shore bombardment to “soften up” the defensive forces prior to the actual landing of troops, Heavy Artillery units get to conduct Coastal Defense to help repel the attacking force. Each Heavy Artillery unit in the territory that is being invaded gets to fire one time at the Transports carrying the attacking force. On a roll of a 1, one Transport is sunk and its cargo is lost at sea before the units on-board can land anywhere. A decision as to which transports are carrying what cargo should ideally be made before prior to rolling the Coastal Defense attack. Heavy Artillery can conduct Coastal Defense whether or not any shore bombardment is conducted on behalf of the Amphibious Invasion. Heavy Artillery that has used its Coastal Defense attack may take part in the further defense of its territory.
This would be an defensive-minded re-tuning. Keeps the Artillery Support to 2 Inf per H. Arty but changes when the support applies from attack only to defense only. Additionally, keeps the defense value at 3 while trimming the attack value to 2 and removing the Long Range Attack ability.
One of these would be closer to my vision for an addition of “Big Guns” to the A&A battlefield.
-Midnight_Reaper
If you want the H Art gun to have all the abilities you want then just raise the cost to 8.
@SS:
If you want the H Art gun to have all the abilities you want then just raise the cost to 8.
The following is going to come off wrong, between a combination of ‘this is the Internet’ and ‘I suck at inter-personal communication’ but I mean the following sincerely and without either malice or anger. Promise.
I’m interested in honest back-and-forth. I don’t know everything, I can’t foresee the implications of every possible deviation from the rule book as published. That’s why I’m throwing these rules up for scrutiny in the first place.
I can do anything I want. I don’t need anybody’s permission for that. What I want to see is whether other people see things the way I do or not. So far, I get the impression that they do not. And that’s fine as well. I suspect that the only people who get any mileage out of these rules, whether presented as a new way to play Classic or as a new way to play '42, Second Edition, will be myself and whomever I can get play with me face to face.
Truth be told, somebody sat down and said: “I want to add this stack of plastic to this other stack of plastic. Now, how do I do that?”, and then somebody else (me) sat down, read their published ideas, and said: “This looks like a good start, but what would make this better?” Is ‘A3D2M1C6 with +1 to the attack of another unit, can’t hit Air units, can attack the next territory without moving there’ better, worse, or indifferent from ‘A2D3M1C6 with +1 to the defense of another unit, can’t hit Air units, can do ‘reverse bombardment’ during an amphibious invasion’? And are either of the above better, worse, or indifferent than ’ ‘A3D3M1C8 with +1 to the attack or defense of two other units, can’t hit Air units, can attack the next territory without moving there, can do ‘reverse bombardment’ during an amphibious invasion’?
I don’t know the answer to those questions. But I’d love to hear what others have to say about that.
-Midnight_Reaper
Im not trying to knock any of your thoughts. You may only get a few replies if that. No body really has the H Art in there game. I gave you my values from one of the 39 games that I have.
Now maybe IL or Baron might chime in and give you there idea what a H Art values should be. I just think for what you want the piece to do is the cost is to low.
Put in your game and play test it. Thats the way I find out if it works or not.
You try typing in the search bar Heavy Artilliary ?
Heavy Artillery:
C6 A3 D2 M1 +1 support 1-1 per inf. Can fire into next territory but then can only M1 on non combat. Or move 1 in combat but doesn’t get next territory shot. You could have If you roll a 1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire. Cant hit planes period.
Yes to all these ideas especially in bold, except allow it to move in combat only if with either a truck unit ( if you play with those) or Armored Infantry ( Mech). Only other idea is not allow the shot from adjacent area, which i reserve only to gigantic rail guns.
@SS:
Im not trying to knock any of your thoughts. You may only get a few replies if that. No body really has the H Art in there game. I gave you my values from one of the 39 games that I have.
Now maybe IL or Baron might chime in and give you there idea what a H Art values should be. I just think for what you want the piece to do is the cost is to low.
Put in your game and play test it. Thats the way I find out if it works or not.
I’ve played with these rules before, but only against novice players or in solo games. Perhaps I should look into setting up a TripleA scenario with all of these rules as options. Then people could try what they want to try out and let me know how it turned out. I think it’s good as-is, but I’m biased so I’m looking for other opinion.
@SS:
You try typing in the search bar Heavy Artilliary?
I’ve tried to do that but Google gives me an error code when I try that. I use Firefox with a custom NoScript load that doesn’t normally let Google Analytics in, so I should probably try again with that enabled to see what happens. (The things you think about when answering someone else’s question that you didn’t think about before - part of why I’m throwing these rules out there for people to poke holes in.)
-Midnight_Reaper
@Imperious:
Heavy Artillery:
C6 A3 D2 M1 +1 support 1-1 per inf. Can fire into next territory but then can only M1 on non combat. Or move 1 in combat but doesn’t get next territory shot. You could have If you roll a 1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire. Cant hit planes period.
Yes to all these ideas especially in bold, except allow it to move in combat only if with either a truck unit ( if you play with those) or Armored Infantry ( Mech). Only other idea is not allow the shot from adjacent area, which i reserve only to gigantic rail guns.
Hello Imperious Leader, thanks for joining us.
I am personally biased against rules that let the player scoring the hit pick the unit taking the hit, but that’s me. I can certainly see the thematic appropriateness when used with lots of big guns. What do you think of the following version of Big Guns for A&A?
@Defensive-Minded:
Unit Name IPC Cost ATK DEF MOVE Notes
Heavy Artillery 6 2 3 1 Can only hit Ground Units (exception for Coastal Defense special attack). Can increase defense for Infantry, etc., defense by support. See below for Coastal Defense rules.Heavy Artillery - The King of Battle. These are the truly big guns, massed to support the main effort of an army. These are not anti-aircraft guns and therefore can not hit aircraft. Can provide supporting fire for Infantry and any other Infantry-like units in the defense, increasing their Defense by 1. This support can be provided for up to one (1) supported units per each Heavy Artillery unit in the defending territory and is in addition to the Heavy Artillery’s own defense roll. Can also conduct Coastal Defense - See below for more.
Coastal Defense: Support the defense of the territory the Heavy Artillery unit is located, in the face of an Amphibious Invasion. As Battleships get to conduct shore bombardment to “soften up” the defensive forces prior to the actual landing of troops, Heavy Artillery units get to conduct Coastal Defense to help repel the attacking force. Each Heavy Artillery unit in the territory that is being invaded gets to fire one time at the Transports carrying the attacking force. On a roll of a 1, one Transport is sunk and its cargo is lost at sea before the units on-board can land anywhere. A decision as to which transports are carrying what cargo should ideally be made before prior to rolling the Coastal Defense attack. Heavy Artillery can conduct Coastal Defense whether or not any shore bombardment is conducted on behalf of the Amphibious Invasion. Heavy Artillery that has used its Coastal Defense attack may take part in the further defense of its territory.
Coastal Defense is an interesting ability in my opinion, a reverse Amphibious Bombardment. While it can be used against an Amphibious Invasion even if it was not supported by an Amphibious Bombardment, it does not come into play when a territory is attacked only from land or sky. Because it only comes into play against an Amphibious Invasion, and only if the defending territory has Heavy Artillery to defend with, this is an ability that may only be used twice or thrice a game. Whether that makes any difference about how potent is this special ability is an open question in my mind.
-Midnight_Reaper
1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire
Try it one of two ways:
you will like one of these options
@Imperious:
1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire
Try it one of two ways:
- what we call a “call shot” pick land unit as loss
- alternatively if you roll a one, defender chooses loss and that unit cant fire back
you will like one of these options
I would have to try them out before I could give a full opinion of them. My question to you is: why the emphasis on ‘pick the hit unit on 1’ rules? Is this a new addition to the meta of house rules here? Submarines have pretty much also fought this way, but I’ve previously seen proposed house rules for Tac Bombers to ‘pick their hit on 1’. Is this becoming a thing?
Should I start a new thread to ask about the popularity and usefulness of ‘pick your hit on 1’ critical strike rules?
-Midnight_Reaper
@Imperious:
1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire
Try it one of two ways:
- what we call a “call shot” pick land unit as loss
- alternatively if you roll a one, defender chooses loss and that unit cant fire back
you will like one of these options
I would have to try them out before I could give a full opinion of them. My question to you is: why the emphasis on ‘pick the hit unit on 1’ rules? Is this a new addition to the meta of house rules here? Submarines have pretty much also fought this way, but I’ve previously seen proposed house rules for Tac Bombers to ‘pick their hit on 1’. Is this becoming a thing?
Should I start a new thread to ask about the popularity and usefulness of ‘pick your hit on 1’ critical strike rules?
-Midnight_Reaper
I have in my WW2 40 game Tac (Dive) bombers D12 A7 D4 M4 C10 roll a 2 or less on A and D can pick target with no return shot for ground and naval. The 2 or less roll hit is for more of a accurate shot on a piece. So I use the Tac as a 2 different scenario.
Also in one of my 39 games there are Dive Bombers and Naval Figs that can pick the target on a 4 (Dive) or 1 (Fig) but the defender still gets a return shot while the attacker gets to pick the piece.
Pretty much these pieces are in just the 39 games and anybody that has housed ruled there game (G40 OOB) but just a few if any. From what I’ve seen posted on site anyway.
@SS:
@Imperious:
1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire
Try it one of two ways:
- what we call a “call shot” pick land unit as loss
- alternatively if you roll a one, defender chooses loss and that unit cant fire back
you will like one of these options
I would have to try them out before I could give a full opinion of them. My question to you is: why the emphasis on ‘pick the hit unit on 1’ rules? Is this a new addition to the meta of house rules here? Submarines have pretty much also fought this way, but I’ve previously seen proposed house rules for Tac Bombers to ‘pick their hit on 1’. Is this becoming a thing?
Should I start a new thread to ask about the popularity and usefulness of ‘pick your hit on 1’ critical strike rules?
-Midnight_Reaper
I have in my WW2 40 game Tac (Dive) bombers D12 A7 D4 M4 C10 roll a 2 or less on A and D can pick target with no return shot for ground and naval. The 2 or less roll hit is for more of a accurate shot on a piece. So I use the Tac as a 2 different scenario.
Also in one of my 39 games there are Dive Bombers and Naval Figs that can pick the target on a 4 (Dive) or 1 (Fig) but the defender still gets a return shot while the attacker gets to pick the piece.
Pretty much these pieces are in just the 39 games and anybody that has housed ruled there game (G40 OOB) but just a few if any. From what I’ve seen posted on site anyway.
It must have been your Tac Bomber rules that I read. It just seems like the idea of “He shoots, he scores, he crits, he picks the casualty!” has become something I’ve noticed of late. As I’ve said before, I’m not a big fan of that idea in the abstract, but I will admit to really needing to try it out for real before I can truly say that I don’t like it at all.
-Midnight_Reaper
My question to you is: why the emphasis on ‘pick the hit unit on 1’ rules?
This again is what we call : Call shot
Having something that breaks up the idea that the loser of the unit can choose whatever he wants as a combat loss is a good thing. The artillery units generally carpet bomb whole areas of the battlefield, and Heavy Artillery doing the most damage. Second having such a unit makes it very valuable in the game, by playing you will find out. Thirdly its really fun and i would further suggest the Battleship have this capability. Reason: because the BB has the guns of the greatest range and can shoot targets before they can fire back as they need to be closer to even have a chance.
@SS:
@Imperious:
1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire
Try it one of two ways:
- what we call a “call shot” pick land unit as loss
- alternatively if you roll a one, defender chooses loss and that unit cant fire back
you will like one of these options
I would have to try them out before I could give a full opinion of them. My question to you is: why the emphasis on ‘pick the hit unit on 1’ rules? Is this a new addition to the meta of house rules here? Submarines have pretty much also fought this way, but I’ve previously seen proposed house rules for Tac Bombers to ‘pick their hit on 1’. Is this becoming a thing?
Should I start a new thread to ask about the popularity and usefulness of ‘pick your hit on 1’ critical strike rules?
-Midnight_Reaper
I have in my WW2 40 game Tac (Dive) bombers D12 A7 D4 M4 C10 roll a 2 or less on A and D can pick target with no return shot for ground and naval. The 2 or less roll hit is for more of a accurate shot on a piece. So I use the Tac as a 2 different scenario.
Also in one of my 39 games there are Dive Bombers and Naval Figs that can pick the target on a 4 (Dive) or 1 (Fig) but the defender still gets a return shot while the attacker gets to pick the piece.
Pretty much these pieces are in just the 39 games and anybody that has housed ruled there game (G40 OOB) but just a few if any. From what I’ve seen posted on site anyway.It must have been your Tac Bomber rules that I read. It just seems like the idea of “He shoots, he scores, he crits, he picks the casualty!” has become something I’ve noticed of late. As I’ve said before, I’m not a big fan of that idea in the abstract, but I will admit to really needing to try it out for real before I can truly say that I don’t like it at all.
-Midnight_Reaper
The main reason for Tac Bombers to have this call shot is for both ground and naval attacks plus it gets the Tac Bomber more involved in the game. There like the Cruiser. Nobody really buys them. Thats also why my Cruiser is (D12) A7 D7 M2 C9. (but you need to lower your destroyers 1 value in A and D). So Destroyers would be A3 D3. Its a good boost for Anzac, FEC and Italy. As I stated before you need to play test everything.
You could try with the defender at least gets a return shot if you have your doubts.
@Imperious:
My question to you is: why the emphasis on ‘pick the hit unit on 1’ rules?
This again is what we call : Call shot
Having something that breaks up the idea that the loser of the unit can choose whatever he wants as a combat loss is a good thing. The artillery units generally carpet bomb whole areas of the battlefield, and Heavy Artillery doing the most damage. Second having such a unit makes it very valuable in the game, by playing you will find out. Thirdly its really fun and i would further suggest the Battleship have this capability. Reason: because the BB has the guns of the greatest range and can shoot targets before they can fire back as they need to be closer to even have a chance.
Oh great IL. Now I got to add this to my Battleships in games ! :-D
Death Heads plays by me and he wanted the no return shot from Battleships and Cruisers for 39 game and we played 2 games that way but the rest of guys in group didn’t want it. Go figure. I can at least see the Battleship Bombardment hit gets a no return shot. its like pulling teeth with some people but what it is is what it is. :wink:
