(Classic) Simple Cruiser Rules for Classic

[Bob77]

When i play classic, i use oob prices with $15 gamers paradise cruisers

[baron Münchhausen]

It was reduced to 13 IPCs, in my Gamer’s version.
It makes sense because BB was still 24 IPCs.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Midnight_Reaper:

@Baron:

Is BB cost at 24, 2 hits, per classic edited rule set ?

If 20, then keep Cruiser 12 IPCs and give it some Anti-Submarine Capacity of Destroyer.
See it as a sculpt which represent all warships escorting capital warship units, Carrier and Battleship.

And let Subs dive before aircraft attack unless a Cruiser-Destroyer is blocking Sub Submerge.
But Subs Surprise strike cannot be blocked, and is always rolling first strike.

Submarines will be more than sitting duck against planes, and even if 12 IPCs makes Cruiser less powerful in pure combat compared to Battleship, it is clearly right.

Just a little twist but it will improve all combat interactions IMO.

Fighter is still 12 IPCs? Bomber at 15 IPCs?

While I’ve never given much thought to having Cruisers with anti-submarine abilities, I have thought about having Cruisers with integrated anti-aircraft ability: Treat as AAA at sea for having Cruisers with your fleet, except with a cap of two (2) dice rolled per Cruiser present. It’s not the same, but would it be comparable?

As for costs…

With “standard costs”
Battleships (two-hit) at 20, Carriers at 16, Cruisers at 12, Subs and Trans at 8
Bombers at 15, Fighters at 10, Air Transport (Cargo Planes) at 8.
Factories at 15, AAA at 5
Tanks at 5, Paratroopers at 4 (optional unit), Infantry at 3

With “adjusted costs” (optional rule)
Battleships (two-hit) at 10, Carriers at 8, Cruisers at 6, Subs and Trans at 4
Bombers at 10, Fighters at 7, Air Transport (Cargo Planes, optional unit) at 5.
Factories at 8, AAA at 5
Tanks at 5, Paratroopers at 4 (optional unit), Infantry at 3

Some other units as well, still working on their own write up.

-Midnight_Reaper

IMO, the real issue in Classic is about Sub being too vulnerable against aircraft.
You modify Fighter cost from 12 to 10. Increasing planes availability (on Carrier vs Subs).

My 2 cents on requiring Cruiser to only prevent them Subs from Submerge is a small compromise to radically improve interaction and ellusivness of Subs. As I said, this Cruiser sculpt might figure for all non-capital warships.
Now Subs can submerge before all attacking units, if you don’t bring a Cruiser to the party.
Of course, it is absolutely not mandatory to submerge.

Transport will remain the best fodder because it is the cheaper and weakest unit.

[Midnight_Reaper]

@Baron:

@Midnight_Reaper:

@Baron:

Is BB cost at 24, 2 hits, per classic edited rule set ?

If 20, then keep Cruiser 12 IPCs and give it some Anti-Submarine Capacity of Destroyer.
See it as a sculpt which represent all warships escorting capital warship units, Carrier and Battleship.

And let Subs dive before aircraft attack unless a Cruiser-Destroyer is blocking Sub Submerge.
But Subs Surprise strike cannot be blocked, and is always rolling first strike.

Submarines will be more than sitting duck against planes, and even if 12 IPCs makes Cruiser less powerful in pure combat compared to Battleship, it is clearly right.

Just a little twist but it will improve all combat interactions IMO.

Fighter is still 12 IPCs? Bomber at 15 IPCs?

While I’ve never given much thought to having Cruisers with anti-submarine abilities, I have thought about having Cruisers with integrated anti-aircraft ability: Treat as AAA at sea for having Cruisers with your fleet, except with a cap of two (2) dice rolled per Cruiser present. It’s not the same, but would it be comparable?

{snip}

IMO, the real issue in Classic is about Sub being too vulnerable against aircraft.
You modify Fighter cost from 12 to 10. Increasing planes availability (on Carrier vs Subs).

My 2 cents on requiring Cruiser to only prevent them Subs from Submerge is a small compromise to radically improve interaction and ellusivness of Subs. As I said, this Cruiser sculpt might figure for all non-capital warships.
Now Subs can submerge before all attacking units, if you don’t bring a Cruiser to the party.
Of course, it is absolutely not mandatory to submerge.

Transport will remain the best fodder because it is the cheaper and weakest unit.

So you think that I should give subs a new ability to help them out against planes and then have cruisers take that new sub ability away when subs face cruisers in battle? While that would give incentive for powers to stock their fleets with cruisers, I would rather just simplify things - if fighting against planes is the ultimate issue, why not just give cruisers the ability to knock those pesky fliers out of the sky straight away?

As a thought, if we’re going to hand new powers to old units and new units, what do you think of something like this?
Battleships at 20 - Two hits to kill, Amphibious Bombardment, AAA value at 1 against up to 2 planes per BB
Carriers at 16 - Two hits to kill, Carry two fighters, AAA value at 1 against up to 2 planes per CV
Cruisers at 12 - One hit to kill, Counters SS Submerge ability, AAA value at 1 against up to 1 planes per CA
Subs at 8 - One hit to kill, First Strike ability, Submerge ability
Trans at 8 - One hit to kill, Carry three infantry or one infantry and one armor

(If we’re going to have cruisers doing the work of destroyers as well, I guess you could call them Cruiser-Destroyers, similar to some old US Navy CRUDESRONs - Cruiser Destroyer Squadrons.)

-Midnight_Reaper

[General 6 Stars]

What is your Values on the Carrier ? A ? D ? or it just gets the AAA shot at 2 planes on D ?

[Midnight_Reaper]

@SS:

What is your Values on the Carrier ? A ? D ? or it just gets the AAA shot at 2 planes on D ?

Allow me to clarify…

Battleships at C20 A4D4M2 - Two hits to kill, Amphibious Bombardment, AAA value at 1 against up to 2 planes per BB
Carriers at C16 A1D3M2 - Two hits to kill, Carry two fighters, AAA value at 1 against up to 2 planes per CV
Cruisers at C12 A3D3M2 - One hit to kill, Counters SS Submerge ability, AAA value at 1 against up to 1 planes per CA
Subs at C8 A2D2M2 - One hit to kill, First Strike ability, Submerge ability
Trans at C8 A0D1M2 - One hit to kill, Carry three infantry or one infantry and one (armor or AAA)

-Midnight_Reaper

[baron Münchhausen]

To help Cruiser and BB being interesting,  I  would drop Carrier AA capacity.
Carrier has already the highest defense capacity of all carriers in A&A series with 2 hits and @3.
To make things simpler, I would not give AA at all for Carrier. It will be purchase because of her carrying capacity anyway. Another option is to make it similar to G40 Carrier A0 D2 C16 2 hits with AA capacity. This IMO will make all ships competitive with strength and weakness.

[Midnight_Reaper]

@Baron:

To help Cruiser and BB being interesting,  I  would drop Carrier AA capacity.
Carrier has already the highest defense capacity of all carriers in A&A series with 2 hits and @3.
To make things simpler, I would not give AA at all for Carrier. It will be purchase because of her carrying capacity anyway. Another option is to make it similar to G40 Carrier A0 D2 C16 2 hits with AA capacity. This IMO will make all ships competitive with strength and weakness.

So, something like this:

Battleships at C20 A4D4M2 - Two hits to kill, Amphibious Bombardment, AAA value at 1 against up to 2 planes per BB
Carriers at C16 A1D3M2 - Two hits to kill, Carry two fighters, AAA value at 1 against up to 2 planes per CV (No AAA value anymore for the CVs.)
Cruisers at C12 A3D3M2 - One hit to kill, Counters SS Submerge ability, AAA value at 1 against up to 1 plane per CA
Subs at C8 A2D2M2 - One hit to kill, First Strike ability, Submerge ability
Trans at C8 A0D1M2 - One hit to kill, Carry three infantry or one infantry and one (armor or AAA)

I dig it, there’s a use for every ship - Transports carry ground units, Carriers carry Fighters, Battleships carry the big guns and help defend the Carriers and Transports against planes, Cruisers carry medium guns and help defend the Carriers and Transports against Subs, and the Subs are the wolves of the sea, striking at the weak and unprotected. I can work with this Cruiser.

Thanks Baron!

-Midnight_Reaper

[baron Münchhausen]

My pleasure.

Your TP is interesting. 3 Infantry on each might allow much more money investment in warships. IDK if  Germany can sustain both UK and US when KGF. May be interesting for Japan, especially if trying Alaska invasion or massive India Crush with TPs.

Let us know about this after Holiday, if you try it.

[Midnight_Reaper]

Baron,

One last question, and then I’ll put this line of thought to bed: What do you think of adding Amphibious Bombardment (AB) at 3 to these Cruisers we have been discussing? I had originally had that as a thought but it slipped my mind while we were discussing it. The chart of sea units would look like this:

Battleships at C20 A4D4M2 - Two hits to kill, AB at 4, AAA value at 1 against up to 2 planes per BB
Carriers at C16 A1D3M2 - Two hits to kill, Carry two fighters
Cruisers at C12 A3D3M2 - One hit to kill, AB at 3, Counters SS Submerge ability, AAA value at 1 against up to 1 plane per CA
Subs at C8 A2D2M2 - One hit to kill, First Strike ability, Submerge ability
Trans at C8 A0D1M2 - One hit to kill, Carry three infantry or one infantry and one (armor or AAA)

While my original notes for this unit had given Cruisers the AB ability, they didn’t have the AAA ability or the Counters SS Submerge ability before. While I think that these new breed Cruisers may have too many abilities when it can take on Subs, planes, and troops ashore I do wonder what you think.

-Midnight_Reaper

[General 6 Stars]

Cruiser only thing I’d change is AB from 3 to 2.

[baron Münchhausen]

For simplicity sakes, I tend to make it 3 for Shore Bombardment.
In  Cruiser vs BB pure combat, 2 hits BB is far better.
Keeping AA 1 shot for Cruiser vs up to 2 rolls for BB keep it better, too.
So, is Shore Bombardment @3 OP?
It makes Cruiser better than BB for the cost.
But Shorebombardment is blocked if a Naval combat is prior the amphibious assault.
Lowering @2 keeps Cruiser guns proportional to BB guns, same way as AAA capacity.
Still don’t think it is a crucial aspect to balance Cruiser vs BB.
To my personal taste, I would keep the same dice as regular naval combat.

But, since Cruiser unit get AA and blocking Sub Submerge, it may be a good idea to restraint ShoreBombard to Battleship. However, I see no preponderance for one way over the other.

[Midnight_Reaper]

@Baron:

{snip}
But, since Cruiser unit get AA and blocking Sub Submerge, it may be a good idea to restraint Shore Bombard to Battleship. However, I see no preponderance for one way over the other.

I think that if Cruisers were “just” 3/3/2/12, Shore Bombard would be a good tool to add to them. But these new breed Cruisers “aren’t just” 3/3/2/12, they are 3/3/2/12 - Counters SS Submerge ability, AAA value at 1 against up to 1 plane per CA. And since they have anti-Sub and anti-aircraft abilities I think that adding Shore Bombard would be too much. I think I will leave it off. And in that way, there are reasons to buy Cruisers and reasons to buy Battleships.

Thanks again, Baron.

-Midnight_Reaper

[Midnight_Reaper]

Cruisers or Destroyers for my new surface warship?

Subject of a new post: www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=41552.0

For those following along at home…

-Midnight_Reaper