Crazy George!

[DarthMaximus]

@Cmdr:

Threatening W. Russia/Caucasus is just a replacement and a better replacement for Japan threatening Kazakh, Novosibirsk and Evenki while holding SFE, Yakut and Buryatia from a Russian standpoint.

I disagree b/c Russia and the Allies can do this without losing early UK units and without adding an IC.

I’m a huge fan of strategic withdrawl.  Extend Japan’s supply lines, have them rush in, then samsh them on the counter in about rd 4 or 5 after you’ve contained Germany.  Then you push back hard against Japan with all three Allies.

@Cmdr:

Why?  Because England can, and should, be easily feeding troops into Karelia and down through Europe from there.  Meanwhile, Japan does not have India, Persia, China, Sinkiang, FIC, Kwangtung, Manchuria, Evenki, SFE, Buryatia, Novosibirsk and/or Kazakh.  A potential loss of 25 IPC to the Axis income.

I don’t think that is possible to hold all those IC or not, unless Japan is incompetent.  Worst case is Japan continually unloads 8 inf into Bury/Man or Kwa.  They can even split 4 to Fic, 4 to Bury.  Japan can pretty much ignore India/Fic if they want to.

I’d just go north, you only need 24 ipc to unload 8 inf a turn.  That means Japan can lose FIC and still offload 8.  One turn to Man means 16 on Bury the next, which means 16 on Yak and 8 on Bury, etc.  The Allies can have all the troops they want in SE Asia I’ll take Eve as the Germans take Wrus and then bye bye Moscow.  Now I’ll go back and get SE Asia once Russia is out of the game.

[Jennifer]

Yes, but can 8 infantry push back American and British units?  Say America has China, Sinkiang and FIC with ICs and are making 7 units a turn there. (4 inf, art, 2 arm for argument’s sake) and England has 2 inf, 1 arm going into India.  Can Japan’s 8 infantry push all that back and hold them back?

Meanwhile, Germany’s still scrambling to get 3:1 odds for their major assaults. (I estimate it takes 3 Attacking Punch to successfully kill 1 Defending Punch since you need left overs.  That is, 2 Armor can be expected to almost always kill 1 defending infantryman with at least one unit left to hold the ground. - Note, this is PUNCH, not IPC value!)

[trihero]

Meanwhile, Germany’s still scrambling to get 3:1 odds for their major assaults. (I estimate it takes 3 Attacking Punch to successfully kill 1 Defending Punch since you need left overs.  That is, 2 Armor can be expected to almost always kill 1 defending infantryman with at least one unit left to hold the ground. - Note, this is PUNCH, not IPC value!)

Off the top of my head that sounds a little high. I’m thinking you want somewhere around 1.5 : 1 or maybe 2:1 odds in terms of punch, provided you have a split force of inf/tanks, and your total unit count exceeeds theirs (which should already happen given the odds). Remember, defense punch dies off more quickly because infantry are losing 2 punch on defense instead of 1 on offense, so if you’re evenly matched up on punch I would go for it as the offender since the defense will lose their punch faster.

I have to say though this is contigent upon having a large inf screen, or else the offense will lose at a faster rate if it’s all tanks.

[U-505]

@Cmdr:

Why?  Because England can, and should, be easily feeding troops into Karelia and down through Europe from there.  Meanwhile, Japan does not have India, Persia, China, Sinkiang, FIC, Kwangtung, Manchuria, Evenki, SFE, Buryatia, Novosibirsk and/or Kazakh.  A potential loss of 25 IPC to the Axis income.

First, you keep saying that the UK can easily land troops in Karelia while the Russian fighters are in Asia. You can’t build a CV on UK1 if you build an IC in India. Even a poor Germany player is going to crush your UK fleet if it is landing in Karelia and undefended by a CV. It just makes no sense.

Second, Maybe you’ll get control of Manchuria for a turn until Japan lands heavily there, but Kwangtung? There is no possible way japan isn’t going to be able to control Kwangtung permanently. And Japan will be trading China and FIC so you can’t say that they won’t at least be able to collect on those territories if not hold them outright. Japan can have 20 units, including aircraft, in Asia by the end of J2. I’ve played against some pretty damn good players using KJF and even they couldn’t do what you said you could do. You’re just fantasizing.

[newpaintbrush]

@U-505:

You’re just fantasizing.

(slobber) yesh, yesh I am!

(edit) ah, the things I do to increase post count (/edit)

[DarthMaximus]

Bean is right.  The Attacker can win even if it is outnumbered in punch provided the attacker has more total units.  But even if it is a much closer battle at this point it is good for Germany to kill the Russians since they should still maintain an IPC lead of 40+ to 25ish, since the Allies are helping in Asia.  Geramny should still have some Afr income coming in as well as its Med fleet.

@Cmdr:

Yes, but can 8 infantry push back American and British units?  Say America has China, Sinkiang and FIC with ICs and are making 7 units a turn there. (4 inf, art, 2 arm for argument’s sake) and England has 2 inf, 1 arm going into India.  Can Japan’s 8 infantry push all that back and hold them back?

Yes.

US should not have an IC on Chi.  There are 2 must attacks on J1, China and Pearl.  Even if Fic was taken by the UK, Japan can ignore it.  5 inf + planes to Chi, tons o’ ships to Pearl and as a bonus attack with the EI fleet as it cleans up Sz 59 or any loose UK ships floating around.

Chi should be fairly safe from counter attack on round 2 unless Russia brings in armor/ftrs (very good for Germany).  Sin is a different story but those new units can’t attack until Rd 3.  By that time Japan has 4-5 trns and plenty of inf, to force the issue North.
I really don’t care if the Allies want to trade Fic/Kwa/Man in rd 2, I’ll have 2 BB’s and 5-7 planes.  Russia won’t be able to hold 6 inf in Bury/Man/Yak for very long, plus without ftr support in Bury in Rd 2, chances are Russia loses its stack there when Japan attacks with 2 BB shots, 6-8 units and planes.

I’ll kill the Russian troops before I worry about Fic, if they wisely fall back to Yak, then Japan has its foothold in Bury and that protects Man and essentially puts it out of reach for the Allies for the early part of the game.

Now, the Allies should not be able to safely drop an IC on FIC for quite sometime.  Even if UK holds it after J1, I can’t see anyway they place an IC on Fic after putting one on Ind on UK 1.  They will not have enough troops yet to defend the Fic IC and Japan can take it.  Japan will certainly have the ability to trade Fic on J2, which means the Allies won’t have another opportunity to put an IC there until Rd 4.  I can’t see how the US would be able to take back Fic on US 2 so that leaves UK 3 or US 3.  I’m not buying it, not without a full fledge KJF and US Pac build up as well.

What all of this means is Japan can essentially go about its business as normal for the first 3-4 turns.  Yes, it might cost you some early IPC in rd 1-2 but as long as you collect over 24 you can still do normal Japan buys and get plenty of troops to Asia.  I don’t think the Allies can hold Fic or Kwa as long as Japan has its full navy.

I think a better quesiton might be, could the Allies mixed force push back the 8 Japanese inf?

Mixed forces are great on Def, but on Off they are very weak, so once Japan lands it is not that easy to trade with them, esp since Japan has 2 BBs and a far superior airforce.

Now if the US goes Pac strat and it is a KJF, okay then the Allies can do some real damage, but my impression was we were mainly talking about an annoying Japan strat and some pesky UK 1 attacks.

My point is if you aren’t going to follow-up your UK 1 attacks with anything (read KJF), then what is the point?
On its own I don’t think it is that much of delay to Japan and those units could be better served fortifying Per/Cauc/Kaz for use against the Germans or Japanese as needed.

I just don’t like throwing away early units as the Allies esp when it is so tough to get reinforcements there.

Edit:

I agree with U-505.

[Jennifer]

U-505:

You keep forgetting the Russian fighters are in Asia for a mere 1 round and are not ever out of conflict with the Germans.

Furthermore, you keep assuming I need to buy a carrier.  Why?  I have a perfectly good one in SZ 35 I can easily sail home without risk.  By turn 3, the British are landing with impunity in Karelia/Archangelsk and have Africa seized (with minor American help.)

Japan, on the other hand, have been completely wiped off the main continent by Japan 4 with serious American threats in the Pacific forcing them to counter with naval units or lose their islands to a superior American force.

Meanwhile, Russia can now ignore the Eastern sea board and focus 100% of it’s energy on Germany who is having problems of it’s own.  37 IPC income vs 24 in Russia and 15 from England (the other 15 going to India.)

But if you want to keep living in your fantasy world that just because you have an IC in India England has 0 forces to use against Germany and America has 0 forces to use and Russia is totally inept and retreats to Moscow on R1 instead of attacking, or whatever is running through you mind right now, then I’ll gladly destroy you with a KJF in the next league/tournament game we play.  Granted, some time will have to pass so you don’t know it’s a KJF before G1.  :evil:

[U-505]

Oh,come on. There is no way you can restrict Germany to 37 IPC’s in a KJF. With the UK not retaking Egypt Germany is going to be up 2 IPC’s on G1 and probably around 45 or 46 by G2. And if you’re not going to build a CV with the UK and wait until UK4 until the Indian Ocean CV arrives, Germany can chase your Atlantic UK fleet all the way back to sz10 using just a CV purchase to go with the Baltic fleet and a few aircraft in Western. And since Germany won’t be transporting units to Africa they can add the Med fleet as well. Once their back door is safe from the UK, Germany can leave Western empty and focus all 45+ IPC’s every turn at Russia.

And I have no problem playing a League game to prove my point. Ask EM and Gamer how good my anti-KJF game is. Give me a 6 bid :-o  8-) and you’re on. You can hamstring Japan all you want, but you have to be fast because Germany head to head with Russia for too long is a bad idea.

[Jennifer]

Germany - Norway - Algeria - Libya = 37 IPC.  And I’m being nice and assuming they are getting Karelia, that is by no means guarenteed.

As I said, it’s not 100% total asset devotion to KJF.  It’s more like 25% UK assets, 0 % Russian assets 80% American assets.  That’s more then Japan makes and boats are pretty darn expensive.

However, I’d never play a KJF if the opponent KNEW it was KJF before the game started.  Germany can alter all their moves for optimal in a KJF on G1 however, those same moves in a KGF are suicide.

Not to mention Japan’s purchases in a KJF vs SJF vs Normal games are COMPLETELY different.

KJF starts on USA 1.  SJF starts on UK 1.

[U-505]

@Cmdr:

Germany - Norway - Algeria - Libya = 37 IPC.  And I’m being nice and assuming they are getting Karelia, that is by no means guarenteed.

As I said, it’s not 100% total asset devotion to KJF.  It’s more like 25% UK assets, 0 % Russian assets 80% American assets.  That’s more then Japan makes and boats are pretty darn expensive.

However, I’d never play a KJF if the opponent KNEW it was KJF before the game started.  Germany can alter all their moves for optimal in a KJF on G1 however, those same moves in a KGF are suicide.

Not to mention Japan’s purchases in a KJF vs SJF vs Normal games are COMPLETELY different.

KJF starts on USA 1.  SJF starts on UK 1.

How’s this:

G1=42  (Up Karelia, Egypt/Down WR)

G2=45  (Up Karelia, Egypt, T-J(Med TP), Bcng+IEA(Egy arm blitz)/Down WR) And go ahead and take Norway on UK1 if you dare. My subs and aircraft will enjoy the target practice and my recon planes will take pictures of your capsized battleship and burning TP’s for recorded historical purposes.

And it seems to me ANY German move is optimized against a KJF.

Also 25% UK investment is a low estimate. The IC on UK1 is 50% of their assets and with the UK earning somewhere in the neighborhood of $25 or less because of Germany unopposed in Africa you’re looking at about 40% investment assuming 9 IPC’s for 3 inf at the IC every turn.

@Cmdr:

However, I’d never play a KJF if the opponent KNEW it was KJF before the game started.

Nice job of backpedaling. I’m taking a low bid that only a few players would dare try AND I’m probably the most predictable Axis player here. But since you are concerned with me knowing your strategy, I’ll tell you mine:

With the bid I will be placing 1 art in Lib and 2 IPC’s to Japan.

With Germany I will build 1 CV in sz5, 8 inf if Russia attacks Ukraine/WR, and 1 CV/TP in sz14, 4 inf, 1 art if Russia attacks Belo/WR or WR only unless Russia has amazingly good results in which case I will go with my first option.

With Japan I will build 4 TP. No exceptions.

My attacks are dependent on what you kill or leave exposed and where, but I’m likely to attack at least China and sz52 with Japan and Germany’s attacks are pretty cut and dried. Note: the Med BB/TP goes to sz13 and I only attack Egypt with aircraft support.

There. Now I know what your first turn moves are and you know mine. Plus, I’m taking a low bid and you know ALL of my builds where, aside from the UK/US IC’s, I have no clue as to what else you will be building. Can’t get much better than that. And if you are concerned with taking a hit on your League record then we can play a non-League game and even Low Luck if you want to minimize some of the dice swings. I only wanted to keep myself limited to 2 games at one time but, in this case, I will make an exception.

[frood]

Don’t worry, U-505 - it’s a pretty safe bet that you are going to have UNGODLY dice and that the game will turn out not to have been a good one to test whatever this thread is about. At least according to Jennifer.

[U-505]

That’s true. I do have a rep for being lucky with the bones.  :-D

[Guest]

@U-505:

That’s true. I do have a rep for being lucky with the bones.  :-D

Just a bit :-P

[Jennifer]

505,

It’s not the bid.  It’s the very fact that you know what is coming and can plan accordingly.  It’s like telling your opponent in a chess game you are moving for a 4 move check mate (“fools mate”) before the first move is played.

Not to mention, I want to see how Russia did and how England is doing and what Germany did.  We’re talking 4 turns before KJF is started or abandoned.

[trihero]

Nice job of backpedaling. I’m taking a low bid that only a few players would dare try AND I’m probably the most predictable Axis player here. But since you are concerned with me knowing your strategy, I’ll tell you mine:

I quote directly from U-505, the answer is already contained here. He told you his strategy which isn’t even specifically geared to undo KJF, so you should be on even terms O_O

[Jennifer]

@U-505:

How’s this:

G1=42  (Up Karelia, Egypt/Down WR)

G2=45  (Up Karelia, Egypt, T-J(Med TP), Bcng+IEA(Egy arm blitz)/Down WR) And go ahead and take Norway on UK1 if you dare. My subs and aircraft will enjoy the target practice and my recon planes will take pictures of your capsized battleship and burning TP’s for recorded historical purposes.

And it seems to me ANY German move is optimized against a KJF.

Also 25% UK investment is a low estimate. The IC on UK1 is 50% of their assets and with the UK earning somewhere in the neighborhood of $25 or less because of Germany unopposed in Africa you’re looking at about 40% investment assuming 9 IPC’s for 3 inf at the IC every turn.

UK will be up Borneo, E. Indies, Philippines, FIC and down Egypt, T-J, IEA, Congo, FWA, FEQ and S. Africa.

Hmm, +4+4+3 = 11 Up
Hmm, -2-2-1-1-1-1-1= -9

England’s earning 32 IPC
Germany’s earning, if Russia lets them, 49
Japan’s earning 19
America’s earning 42+
Russia’s earning 26+

Even with Germany making 50, it’s not great.  Japan’s out of the game because Kwangtung and Manchuria are falling next.  Russia’s in ROund 5 and finally forced to retreat.  Meanwhile, the allies are pushing into North Asia with the Shucks and ICs on the mainland.  Even if you manage to pull out a miracle and sink the combined allied fleet without getting completely destroyed, you still have 7 British/American units a round being put up in SE Asia and walking to Moscow.

Your Northern Fleet will be a threat until Germany 3.  England will sink it at that point with the loss of a transport or two, tops.  Even with your carrier and two fighters for support.  If England is forced to retreat due to poor dice, America will easily slide in and finish it off with it’s own airpower and navy which I’ve already declared is heading into the Atlantic.

So yea, you’ll have Africa, but it won’t help you any.  England will have enough to make up for it in easily defendable islands  in the Pacific.  And you won’t have Japan to distract Russians and hold them back.

[U-505]

OK. This is getting old. You keep making baseless assuptions about stuff without detailing how they come about. Please explain how the UK is taking the East Indies and the Philippines without getting smashed by a Japanese fleet that is 3 times larger than the one UK has in the area.

[Nix]

Let me explain my Views on the FIC attack, since i was the one who primarilly used it on these boards (i believe)

Attacking FIC should be done with these things in Mind:

Russia did Hit westrussia and belorussia (no ukraine).

Russia moved 6 inf to Buryatia
2 Arm to Yakut

Russia bought 3 inf, 3 arms.

Assembled everything else in Westrussia, and moved novo evenki inf to russia, kazhak inf to Cauccasus.

Builds 3 inf in Cauccasus.

Yes Germany can now take cauccasus for 1 round, but it costs.

UK builds 1 IC (maybe 1 fig, 1 arm to i don´t know.) and attacks the usual targets:

ex: SZ59 (ac, dest)
Sub to SZ45.

Trn of australia stays put (maybe pulling 1 inf from new zeeland to australia.

UK landing in Algeria along with reinforcements from USA

UK airforce will attack SZ5 withdraw when trn is dead.

If FIC is cleared from land units IC is placed in India, otherwise it´s placed in Australia.

If IC is in India USA builds IC in Sinkiang (witch gets 3 arm reinforcements if needed, (5 if japan kills buryatia)

If japan does not kill Buryatia then 6 inf9+ arm will go into manchuria (be renforced possiably by 1 UK fig if it lived thrue uk1)

This will seriously harm japans offense.

Personally i belive an unrestricted Japan is more dangerous then unrestricted Germany.

[axis_roll]

@Nix:

Let me explain my Views on the FIC attack, since i was the one who primarilly used it on these boards (i believe)

Attacking FIC should be done with these things in Mind:

Russia did Hit westrussia and belorussia (no ukraine).
Russia moved 6 inf to Buryatia
2 Arm to Yakut
Russia bought 3 inf, 3 arms.
Assembled everything else in Westrussia, and moved novo evenki inf to russia, kazhak inf to Cauccasus.
Builds 3 inf in Cauccasus.

Yes Germany can now take cauccasus for 1 round, but it costs.

UK builds 1 IC (maybe 1 fig, 1 arm to i don´t know.) and attacks the usual targets:
ex: SZ59 (ac, dest)
Sub to SZ45.
Trn of australia stays put (maybe pulling 1 inf from new zeeland to australia.
UK landing in Algeria along with reinforcements from USA
UK airforce will attack SZ5 withdraw when trn is dead.

If FIC is cleared from land units IC is placed in India, otherwise it´s placed in Australia.
If IC is in India USA builds IC in Sinkiang (witch gets 3 arm reinforcements if needed, (5 if japan kills buryatia)
If japan does not kill Buryatia then 6 inf9+ arm will go into manchuria (be renforced possiably by 1 UK fig if it lived thrue uk1)

This will seriously harm japans offense.
Personally i belive an unrestricted Japan is more dangerous then unrestricted Germany.

HELLO KJF!

A good axis counter would be to take caucasus and land the Ukraine ftr from that battle in FIC to support japan since you are obviously set up to go after Japan.

[Nix]

Sure you can, that only means germany is down 1 Fighter for 1 round, and UK does something else, and Russia can still withdraw all forces (exception might be buryatia inf).

So it´s not really that “strange”.  Your not fully committed until after uk1.