Multi National Transport Question / Bombard Question

[Ichabod]

@Gargantua:

@Ichabod:

Regarding Question #2: Does a carrier bombard? No. So how could you say that the carrier participated in the combat amphibious assault? Well, I believe it did not. Therefore I believe that the carrier could move during the non-combat turn since it didn’t participate in combat.

That’s all well and good; but it gets tricky very quickly.

Say for example the territory being amphibiously assaulted had an airbase. The defender chooses not to scramble.

Were you there in combat? or can you move in non combat? even though you would have been there had there been combat? Leading back to the original conclusion, that an amphibious assault makes a seazone a combat move; and you also cannot move out of it in the combat phase unless you are moving to other combat because it’s a friendly sea zone.

Fun discussion. It’s not tricky to me. The carrier may have persuaded someone to not scramble which would have created a sea zone combat battle. But since there was no scramble, there was no sea zone combat battle. The carrier was just there. Kind of like any other unit on the board.

[General 6 Stars]

Does the carrier have planes ? If yes and planes never left carrier for defending  scramble or amp assault then carrier should get to ncm.
But no matter what ships are with a cruiser shore bombarding is that considered a combat move for all ships in same sea zone ?

[Bob77]

If the ship didnt move in combat move AND they didnt actively participate in combat, they can ncm.if there is no sea battle, only land troops planes and cc and bb can participate in amphib landing. If the bb or cc started in sz, they choose to bombard or not ( should be declared in combat move phase) if no sea battle

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Krieghund answered question 1 a while back and confirmed that the sub would stop the amphibious assault.

I believe that Ichabod had it correct in regards to the other questions. The SZ is only a battle zone if the planes chose to scramble so the carrier can move. The key is that the carrier has to make it’s movement in any situation before any planes land on it. Once that happens the carrier can’t move anymore. Bombardment doesn’t create a sea battle. Remember, you can only do bombardment if there is no sea combat.

For yet another interesting twist, in the case where your opponent mobilizes a surface warship in the SZ where your navy group is, you could choose to leave the zone with your carrier and either make an attack or do nothing in another SZ while at the same time leaving your planes in the hostile SZ to fight the newly mobilized surface warship. After that you could fly the planes back to the carrier on NCM.

[General 6 Stars]

Right. I’m just saying any planes from the carrier that attack amp assault does not allow the carrier to ncm.

[Bob77]

All of player Xs planes are considered in the air at the beginning of player Xs turn. That is why you cant move a carrier 2 spaces then fly a plane 4.
The carrier in question can move during ncm if it didnt combat move or conduct combat. Wether it had planes on it or not, and what those planes do, have no effect on the carrier.

[General 6 Stars]

Still don’t agree with that rule. Planes still came from carrier because they have to land on carriers at end of turn for refueling. Just saying.

[Bob77]

Do as you wish. No skin off me.

[Gargantua]

@Bob77:

All of player Xs planes are considered in the air at the beginning of player Xs turn. That is why you cant move a carrier 2 spaces then fly a plane 4.
The carrier in question can move during ncm if it didnt combat move or conduct combat. Wether it had planes on it or not, and what those planes do, have no effect on the carrier.

This is correct

[oysteilo]

In this case I think it is very interesting that the sub would prevent the landing as the british infantry is on an american transport. In the case of a scramble the amphibious assult is allowed as the fighters can only defend against british surface ships and there are none. Why is this different when it comes to the sub?

[Panther]

@oysteilo:

In the case of a scramble the amphibious assult is allowed as the fighters can only defend against british surface ships and there are none.

No, the Amphibious Assault is not allowed:

@Official:

Q. Say the United Kingdom launches an amphibious assault from a US transport without any
supporting UK sea or air units in the sea zone, and then Japan scrambles. What happens?
A. In effect, nothing happens. The US transport doesn’t participate in the sea battle because it’s not the
US’s turn. Since there are no attacking sea or air units, there is no sea battle. However, the sea zone
can’t be cleared of defending combat units, so the amphibious assault can’t proceed.

[Gargantua]

Questions #2 parts 2 and 3 are still outstanding if we have any official takers.

[simon33]

2.1: Yes, providing there was no scramble. If there was a scramble, the carrier participated in Combat so is done for the turn. Only real ambiguity for me is if there is a potential scramble to a SZ which attacking units started in, but the defender elected not to scramble.

2.2: If there is a potential scramble, I would imagine that the carrier can move out to escape that. If there is no potential scramble then it can’t.

2.3: Same thing. Was there a sea combat or not?

[Bob77]

Im not official but ive read enuff.  If their is no sea battle, only offloaded tts and bombarding units attacked. Say i have 2 tt 1 cc 1 bb. 1 tt off loads n bb bombards. The other tt n cc can move ncm.
A potential scramble does allow you to move out in combat move.
Top of pg 13 euro rulebook bullet pts 2&3 maybe helpful

[Panther]

@Gargantua:

Questions #2 parts 2 and 3 are still outstanding if we have any official takers.

Question#2

Part #1:

@rulebook:

Phase 4: Noncombat Move
In this phase, you can move any of your units that didn’t move in the Combat Move phase or participate in combat during your turn.

If there had been a sea battle no unit would be able to move during NCM, as all of them had taken part in the sea battle.

As there has not been a sea battle, the Carrier would be able to move, as it had neither moved during CM nor participated in the assault.

Part #2:

Indeed, the carrier may not move to a friendly seazone during CM, as “units can’t end their movement in friendly spaces during the Combat Move phase” (page 12). The “Sea Units starting in Hostile Seazones”-Rules do not apply.

In case the defender would be able to scramble, it would be different, as one of the exceptions listed on page 12 would match. But not in the given scenario. And the other exceptions listed on page 12 don’t match, either.

@Gargantua:

And …if you have amphibiously assaulted a territory from a friendly SeaZone, that means your ships have “moved” during the combat phase.

No, your ships have either participated in the assault (thus can’t move during NCM) or not (the carrier). The carrier can move during NCM.

Part #3:

No, as pointed out in parts 1 and 2.
If there was no sea battle, every unit not being part of the attack may move during NCM.
(Of course sea units starting there may move during CM, in case they move to attack elsewhere.)

[Krieghund]

@Gargantua:

The rulebook is half clear.  It states that all combat moves must end in combat on Page #13
Sea units that will be participating in an amphibious
assault from a friendly sea zone, as well as sea and/or
air units that may be needed to support it in the case that
defending air units are scrambled (see �Scramble,� page16).

My interpretation of that is scramble or no scramble, or even no airbase, I can move whatever I want in the combat phase to a friendly seazone to support that invasion.

Your interpretation is incorrect.  You may only move units that will participate in or support the amphibious assault into a friendly sea zone.  Air and sea units that will participate in the assault include transports offloading land units, battleships and/or cruisers bombarding, and possibly a warship to escort the transports (if needed because of an enemy sub that will be ignored - bombarding battleships and/or cruisers can fulfill this role).  Supporting units can include any type of air or sea unit desired, but can only be moved there if necessary due to the possibility of a defending scramble - there being both an operative enemy air base and eligible air units present.

As others have pointed out, the same criteria apply when determining whether units beginning the turn in the sea zone may move out of it during combat movement.  Such units restricted from moving out in noncombat movement are those that were actually involved in combat and transports that offloaded.