THE VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL

[Dauvio Vann]

Hi guys, I have given a lot of of thought on Young Grasshopper’s 8D proposal, and this is what I came up with.

INF            C3/M1/A1/D2
ART          C4/M1/A2/D2
MECH          C4/M2/A1/D2
TANK          C6/M2/A4/D4
FIGHTER      C10/M4/A4/D5
T-BOMBER    C11/M4/A4/D4
S-BOMBER    C12/M6/A6/D2
BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
CARRIER      C16/M2/A0/D3
CRUISER    C12/M2/A5/D5
DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2
SUB          C6/M2/A2/D1

[baron Münchhausen]

@Dauvio:

Hi guys, I have given a lot of of thought on Young Grasshopper’s 8D proposal, and this is what I came up with.

INF            C3/M1/A1/D2
ART           C4/M1/A2/D2
MECH          C4/M2/A1/D2
TANK          C6/M2/A4/D4
FIGHTER      C10/M4/A4/D5
T-BOMBER    C11/M4/A4/D4
S-BOMBER    C12/M6/A6/D2
BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
CARRIER      C16/M2/A0/D3
CRUISER     C12/M2/A5/D5
DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2
SUB           C6/M2/A2/D1

INF            C3/M1/A1/D2
ART           C4/M1/A2/D2
MECH          C4/M2/A1/D2
TANK          C6/M2/A4/D4
FIGHTER      C10/M4/A4/D5
T-BOMBER    C11/M4/A4/D4
S-BOMBER    C12/M6/A6/D2
BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
CARRIER      C16/M2/A0/D3
CRUISER     C12/M2/A5/D5
DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2
SUB           C6/M2/A2/D1

I bolded the difference between you and YG.
That might be interesting to know why you prefered these values.
For instance, DD does not defend as well as Carrier.
I suggested D3 for both, YG kept A3 D3 for DD but D2 for Carrier.

Here is YG’s complete D8s roster:

Inf     A1-2 D2 strength 16, 200% or 32, 200%,
MI      A1-2 D2 strength 9 or 112.5%, 18 or 225%
Arty   A3 D2 strength 27 or 337.5%, 18 or 225%
Tank  A4 D4 strength 16 or 200%
AAA   A0 D1*

---

Fighter      A4 D5 strength 5.76 or 72%
TcBomber  A4-5 D4 strength 5.95 or 74.4%, 4.76 or 59.5%
StBomber  A5 D1 strength 5 or 62.5%, 1 or 12.5%

---

Submarine          A3 D2 strength 18.00 or 225.0%, 10.64 or 133.0%
Destroyer          A3 D3 strength 6.75 or 84.4%
Cruiser           A5 D5  strength 5.00 or 62.5%
Carrier, 2 hits    A0 D2 strength 2.95
Battleship, 2 hits A6 D6 strength 3.77

[Dauvio Vann]

This is based on the VANN FORMULAS. The cruiser, and battleship are better buys then the destroyer now. You still want to buy destroyers because of subs.
The inf&art combo hits at 25% now, not 33%. Making the tank more viable.

PROPOSE COMBOS
S-Bomber&Tank. Tank is A5 now making the tank more viable.
Cruiser&Battleship. The cruiser is A6/D6, and the Battleship is A7/D7.
Mech&Inf, and Mech&Art. Inf, and Art can move two.

Now for the sub verses destroyer problem.
Now this is nonsense that one destroyer can detect ten subs.
It should be one destroyer can only detect one sub.
EXAMPLE: Six subs verses five destroyers. Only five of the six subs will be detected. That one sub that is not detected will have all its special abilities. Making the subs more viable

[Imperious Leader]

The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

[Dauvio Vann]

@Imperious:

The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you.  :x :x :x

[Young Grasshopper]

@Dauvio:

@Imperious:

The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you.  :x :x :x

Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.

[Johnson73]

we have be using a 20D Formula for years.  With all the units that HGB came out with you almost have to. 1939 Variant

[baron Münchhausen]

I rather called it Enigma formula, as the up-dated and expanded version, out of respect because without Vann tables and taunting there will be no Larrymarx decoding and only then I could expand to include units which were not there back in Classic time.
I respect intellectual property and I give credit to Vann.
He was maybe a bit too shy to share directly his formula in thinking that this would have break the game.

But, as some others rightly put, A&A is now fortunately far beyond Don’s Infantry Push Mechanics. There is no more big stack staring at each other waiting to get the correct odds to win against the other.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Dauvio:

Now for the sub verses destroyer problem.
Now this is nonsense that one destroyer can detect ten subs.
It should be one destroyer can only detect one sub.
EXAMPLE: Six subs verses five destroyers. Only five of the six subs will be detected. That one sub that is not detected will have all its special abilities. Making the subs more viable

On this Submarine mechanics, I know Der Kuenstler has use it. IDK if this 1:1 rule is still used by him.
One clear issue, is that your stack of Subs and DDs both offense and defense is constantly changing numbers each combat rounds. So, you have to recheck which side is above the other and how many Subs get a surprise roll. Then you have to roll them separately from other Subs.
This special attention can dragged down the naval battle and slow the pace.

On that one, it is clearly simpler to play OOB yes or no presence of enemy’s Destroyer to give Surprise strike.

My own course of thinking about this evolved to simplify further and always give surprise strike but at the same strength as OOB Sub rolling regular attack.
For instance, in YG’s thread, I suggested to always give Subs A2 first strike and D1 first strike.
DD presence blocking only Sub’s Submerge and Stealth Move.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Dauvio:

This is based on the VANN FORMULAS. The cruiser, and battleship are better buys then the destroyer now. You still want to buy destroyers because of subs.
The inf&art combo hits at 25% now, not 33%. Making the tank more viable.

PROPOSE COMBOS
S-Bomber&Tank. Tank is A5 now making the tank more viable.
Cruiser&Battleship. The cruiser is A6/D6, and the Battleship is A7/D7.
Mech&Inf, and Mech&Art. Inf, and Art can move two.

I would like to see the table it gives based on Enigma formula.
If you cannot produced it but only Vann formula for D8, just tell me which unit was the benchmark.
Thanks,

[Imperious Leader]

Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?… aren’t they the same thing?

LOL

Larry-Marx considers 2 hit BB and subs first strike. Your didn’t. Remember?

[Dauvio Vann]

@Young:

@Dauvio:

@Imperious:

The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you.  :x :x :x

Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.

With all do respect YG. You are basically saying if anyone says 8D, it’s your idea, IT"S NOT.

[Dauvio Vann]

Baron Munchhausen

Have Larry Marx check out the ENIGMA FORMULA.

Subs only gets a sneak attack in the first round.

There isn’t a bench mark unit for 8D. It is a simple conversion from 6D to 8D.

[Dauvio Vann]

@Imperious:

Larry-Marx considers 2 hit BB and subs first strike. Your didn’t. Remember?

Basically you need a 8D battlecalc to figure that stuff out, without it it’s going to take you a very long time. 8D battlecalcs don’t exist, but however I can produce one.

[General 6 Stars]

@Dauvio:

@Young:

@Dauvio:

@Imperious:

The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you.  :x :x :x

Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.

With all do respect YG. You are basically saying if anyone says 8D, it’s your idea, IT"S NOT.

I beg to defer Vann he posted the D8 Mod first on site unless somebody else can come up with an old post showing D8 values.

[General 6 Stars]

@R:

we have be using a 20D Formula for years.  With all the units that HGB came out with you almost have to. 1939 Variant

OH NO

I don’t have time to test this yet !!!  :-D :-D :-D :-D

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

@Dauvio:

Hi guys, I have given a lot of of thought on Young Grasshopper’s 8D proposal, and this is what I came up with.

INF            C3/M1/A1/D2
ART           C4/M1/A2/D2
MECH          C4/M2/A1/D2
TANK          C6/M2/A4/D4
FIGHTER      C10/M4/A4/D5
T-BOMBER    C11/M4/A4/D4
S-BOMBER    C12/M6/A6/D2
BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
CARRIER      C16/M2/A0/D3
CRUISER     C12/M2/A5/D5
DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2
SUB           C6/M2/A2/D1

INF            C3/M1/A1/D2
ART           C4/M1/A2/D2 18.0 powerhit
MECH          C4/M2/A1/D2
TANK          C6/M2/A4/D4
FIGHTER      C10/M4/A4/D5
T-BOMBER    C11/M4/A4/D4
S-BOMBER    C12/M6/A6/D2 6.00 powerhit
BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
CARRIER      C16/M2/A0/D3 4.42 powerhit
CRUISER     C12/M2/A5/D5
**DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2  4.5 powerhit
SUB           C6/M2/A2/D1**  8.00 or first strike: 12.00, 4.00 or first strike: 5.32   power*hit

I bolded the difference between you and YG.
That might be interesting to know why you prefered these values.
For instance, DD does not defend as well as Carrier.
I suggested D3 for both, YG kept A3 D3 for DD but D2 for Carrier.

Here is YG’s complete D8s roster:

Inf     A1-2 D2 strength 16.0 or 32.0
MI      A1-2 D2 strength 9.0 or 18.0
Arty   A3 D2 strength 27.0, 18.0
Tank  A4 D4 strength 16.0
AAA   A0 D1*

---

Fighter      A4 D5 strength 5.76, 7.20
TcBomber  A4-5 D4 strength 5.95 , 4.76
StBomber  A5 D1 strength 5.00 , 1.00

---

Submarine   A3 D2 strength 12.00, first strike 18.00, 8.00 first strike 10.64
Destroyer    A3 D3 strength 6.75
Cruiser        A5 D5  strength 5.00
Carrier, 2 hits A0 D2 strength 2.95
Battleship    A6 D6 strength 3.77

Here is the value based on 12 IPCs Cruiser put at 5.00 as the benchmark for YG numbers.
Formula is 144*power/Cost^2.
*2.618034 for 2 hits Battleship or Carrier

If Battleship was A7 D7 C20, you would get a strength factor of 6.60 powerhit.
If Destroyer is A2 D2 C8, you would get 4.5 powerhit.
2 hits Carrier A0 D3 C16 is 0.00, 4.42 power*hit

Comparison:
Infantry  A1-2 D2 M1 C3: 16.00 / 32.00
Mech Inf A1-2 D2 M2 C4: 9.00 / 18.00
Artillery  A2    D2 M1 C4 : 18.00 / 18.00
Artillery  A3    D3 M1 C4 : 27.00 / 27.00
Tank      A4    D4 M2 C6 : 16.00 / 16.00

YG Arty+Inf combos: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 23.51
Vann Arty+Inf combos: Attack/Defense: 23.51

YG Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5  Defense: 18.00
Vann Arty+MechInf combos: Attack/Defense: 18.00

YG’s StBomber A5 D1 C12: 5.00 , 1.00
Vann’s StBomber A6 D1 C12 6.00, 1.00

YG’s Destroyer A3 D3 C8: Attack/Defense: 6.75
Vann’s Destroyer A2 D2 C8: 4.5

YG’s Submarine A3 D2 strength 12.00 first strike 18.00, 8.00 first strike 10.64
Vann’s 8.00 or first strike: 12.00, 4.00 or first strike: 5.32   power*hit

YG’s 2 hits Carrier A0 D2 strength 2.95
Vann’s 2 hits Carrier A0 D3  strength 4.42 power*hit

YG’s Carrier+ 2 Fgs A8 D12 C36 strength: attack 4.65 defense 5.33
Vann’s Carrier+2 Fgs A8 D13 C36 strength: attack 4.65 defense 5.78

[Young Grasshopper]

@Dauvio:

@Young:

@Dauvio:

@Imperious:

The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you.  :x :x :x

Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.

With all do respect YG. You are basically saying if anyone says 8D, it’s your idea, IT"S NOT.

Not at all, I’ve never had a problem with others building off my ideas… I was simply using this thread and your reaction to Imperious Leader to show that you do.

[Ichabod]

You all are not Grand Masters and may never be unless you start using the Ichabod Equations…unfortunately I’m not so sure the community is worthy of it!

[General 6 Stars]

@Ichabod:

You all are not Grand Masters and may never be unless you start using the Ichabod Equations…unfortunately I’m not so sure the community is worth of it!

I’m dieing to see them. I’ll probably agree with them all !  :-D