AAA Should Be Permitted to Attack

[General 6 Stars]

@Narvik:

What this game need, is an air to air combat phase before the general combat, like the one in A&A 1914, where one part get air superiority. Then, the side with no aircrafts should be allowed to use their AA guns as protection against enemy aircraft, both in attack and defense. The current OOB rules are nuts, planes from both sides fly side by side but only engage ground units. That is not how it worked in the real war. Even without an preemptive dogfight phase, fighters should be targeting other aircrafts every round as long there are any, and then they can strafe ground units. But, AA guns defending dug in units were stronger than the light mobile AA guns that followed the charging Tanks. Maybe as other said, defending AA gun roll 3 dice, and attacking AA gun roll 1 die only. I dunno man

Ya I agree but the air on air until there’s a winner will never fly in 40 OOB game.

Maybe if the rule was there when the game first came out.

[Benito Mussolini]

You’ve changed my mind and my vote Ichabod.  :-o

[Ichabod]

@Benito:

You’ve changed my mind and my vote Ichabod.  :-o

Thanks!

[Caesar-Seriona]

Yeah, I never liked the idea of ‘fighters’ just basically being mult attack craft and there should be some kind of air vs air.

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

@Narvik:

What this game need, is an air to air combat phase before the general combat, like the one in A&A 1914, where one part get air superiority. Then, the side with no aircrafts should be allowed to use their AA guns as protection against enemy aircraft, both in attack and defense. The current OOB rules are nuts, planes from both sides fly side by side but only engage ground units. That is not how it worked in the real war. Even without an preemptive dogfight phase, fighters should be targeting other aircrafts every round as long there are any, and then they can strafe ground units. But, AA guns defending dug in units were stronger than the light mobile AA guns that followed the charging Tanks. Maybe as other said, defending AA gun roll 3 dice, and attacking AA gun roll 1 die only. I dunno man

Ya I agree but the air on air until there’s a winner will never fly in 40 OOB game.
I agree.

Maybe if the rule was there when the game first came out.

@Caesar:

Yeah, I never liked the idea of ‘fighters’ just basically being mult attack craft and there should be some kind of air vs air.

I’m a big fan of Air vs Air combat when I play F-2-F, 1941 or 1942.2 or AA50.
Fighter can hit enemy’s plane each combat round.
AAA is cheaper and can defend each combat round.
But Fighter and TcB are also cheaper.

SS had tried it I think in his Global war.

What make you stop from using Fighter attacking fighter or bomber in regular combat?

Was it broken at some point?

High price of planes and higher attrition rate, maybe?

[Caesar-Seriona]

Yeah, I don’t know. People complain that tactical bombers are useless for their price but a house rule that can make them useful is fighters can only engage other aircraft. Making tactical bombers instantly useful.

[baron Münchhausen]

I never thought about this one. Interesting.
Fighter main use was against planes. But Fgs were able to deal damage to Destroyer and other vessels.
But, again this would require a change in cost for Fighter, due to attrition rate.

It is workable IMO if you totally consider air as a true third medium in which there can be battle, same as land or naval by itself.
Subs have unlimited target on naval but cannot hit planes.
Planes get restricted against Subs.

AAA cannot hit land units.

[Rank Carcass]

We have used HBG 1936 AAA rules in global1940 as HR. Works great! We found defence only AAA was illogical. Most AAA were in reality towed by vehicle identical to conventional artillery. If it can move and defend why not also attack?

HR we use, inspired by 1936 rules, modified for 1940 global:

1. AAA unit can only fire on aircraft, both attack or defense. Maximum of 3 shots @ 1 d6, first round of combat only. One shot at each plane per AAA to a maximum of 3 planes shot per each AAA. Casualties caused selected by owner. AAA may be selected as casualties. A1/D1/M1/C oob.

2. All facilities have built in AAA. Used only to defend strategic bombing of that facility, not depicted as a unit.

3. AAA unit piece does not participate in defense of strategic bombing of facilities. Only used to defend unit pieces (inf. Etc.) Or attack with other units in a land zone only. Same as oob artillery, in all movement, including naval transportation. Only used in land zone AAA is located in.

[General 6 Stars]

@Baron:

I never thought about this one. Interesting.
Fighter main use was against planes. But Fgs were able to deal damage to Destroyer and other vessels.
But, again this would require a change in cost for Fighter, due to attrition rate.

It is workable IMO if you totally consider air as a true third medium in which there can be battle, same as land or naval by itself.
Subs have unlimited target on naval but cannot hit planes.
Planes get restricted against Subs.

AAA cannot hit land units.

Ya but if you have air to air combat , is it better for D12 than D6 D8 ? Last reply. If we discuss this further here it needs a new topic thread. Were going off topic.

[Caesar-Seriona]

Unless you can work some kind of contested board rule where air units engage over the boarder lines meaning the battle takes place technically on both sides between air units, this means that any other side that has AA guns can fire as well since obviously planes are flying around and not stationary. That could be a fun way to have “offensive AA”.

[General 6 Stars]

Just have AAA fire first then any planes left get to have combat only with other planes.

[Ichabod]

@Rank:

We have used HBG 1936 AAA rules in global1940 as HR. Works great! We found defence only AAA was illogical. Most AAA were in reality towed by vehicle identical to conventional artillery. If it can move and defend why not also attack?

HR we use, inspired by 1936 rules, modified for 1940 global:

1. AAA unit can only fire on aircraft, both attack or defense. Maximum of 3 shots @ 1 d6, first round of combat only. One shot at each plane per AAA to a maximum of 3 planes shot per each AAA. Casualties caused selected by owner. AAA may be selected as casualties. A1/D1/M1/C oob.

2. All facilities have built in AAA. Used only to defend strategic bombing of that facility, not depicted as a unit.

3. AAA unit piece does not participate in defense of strategic bombing of facilities. Only used to defend unit pieces (inf. Etc.) Or attack with other units in a land zone only. Same as oob artillery, in all movement, including naval transportation. Only used in land zone AAA is located in.

Yes.

Also, I’m curious, were you or are you in the military?

[General 6 Stars]

@Ichabod:

@Rank:

We have used HBG 1936 AAA rules in global1940 as HR. Works great! We found defence only AAA was illogical. Most AAA were in reality towed by vehicle identical to conventional artillery. If it can move and defend why not also attack?

HR we use, inspired by 1936 rules, modified for 1940 global:

1. AAA unit can only fire on aircraft, both attack or defense. Maximum of 3 shots @ 1 d6, first round of combat only. One shot at each plane per AAA to a maximum of 3 planes shot per each AAA. Casualties caused selected by owner. AAA may be selected as casualties. A1/D1/M1/C oob.

2. All facilities have built in AAA. Used only to defend strategic bombing of that facility, not depicted as a unit.

3. AAA unit piece does not participate in defense of strategic bombing of facilities. Only used to defend unit pieces (inf. Etc.) Or attack with other units in a land zone only. Same as oob artillery, in all movement, including naval transportation. Only used in land zone AAA is located in.

Yes.

Also, I’m curious, were you or are you in the military?

Ich, after you reposted this by Rank I really like this HR rule. Just thinking that if you get to use AAA on  A and D, then maybe you should still have to buy AAA gun for SBR’s only and not have the built in AAA gun in Factory’s. I would use a different color AAA gun for SBR’s only. I know with the built in gun in facilities makes it easier in game for ID ing pieces.

[Ichabod]

SS,

I’d prefer to leave the built in AAA of facilities. I wouldn’t want to alter OOB rules anymore in this thread than the original post.

I wonder if people would purchase more AAA at 5 IPCs or just use what they start with? I prefer to play the Axis side. I think that I would buy at least 1 or 2 prior to the Moscow assault to throw dice at the UK planes. I would hope that that would not “break” the game as is. I don’t think it would. If I was playing the allies, I probably wouldn’t purchase AAA, but I’d definitely use it on landings when enemy air was stationed on the land or island.

The thing with all House Rules is that there has to be a need or a logical reason. This HR does not fall into that category of a need to change. I recognize that not adopting this HR makes little difference.

However, I think there is a logical reason. I visualize an Order of Battle dispersed out in a formation above the tactical level advancing in formation with different depths to include the cooks in the rear and the folks driving re-fuel trucks. AAA and artillery being towed forward and re-positioned as needed are all parts of fluid operations.

(For those that mostly visualize the tactical level, Saving Private Ryan had a scene at the end where German troops were moving forward a light AAA. It could have been positioned the whole time for protection. Remember a P51 did swoop in and kill a Mk IV! Go US Army Air Corp!)

[baron Münchhausen]

One reason to change is about how AAA moving in NCM only can slowdown things for transport and the need to note for himself to not forget to move this unit.

Make working AAA as other units simplify things.

[Caesar-Seriona]

Yeah, I only buy AA guns as USSR if Germany is making it clear their air power is going to be opening up territories. Fortunately, I have yet to be on the losing side of Dark Skies.

[General 6 Stars]

@Caesar:

Yeah, I only buy AA guns as USSR if Germany is making it clear their air power is going to be opening up territories. Fortunately, I have yet to be on the losing side of Dark Skies.

Yes and maybe a Normandy landing or Berlin W Germany push.

[Ichabod]

I was curious this afternoon do a previous poster noting that in HBG permits AAA to participate in attacks. So after work I just downloaded HBG’s 1936 Game Manual. There are other interesting rules in here…many of them that are established rules for HBG’s G36 which are DEBATED here endlessly but never leave the forum for a G40 HR change. YG’s thread regarding his die 8 system for instance, well, I didn’t even know this but HBG uses a D12 system; wow, very complex and it leaves room for factors like mountain terrain artwork or river artwork to give a +1 or -1 to defending or attacking infantry. But the game still uses a D6 for a few units doing non-normal combat stuff like strategic bombing damage.

Direct quote from page 54.

http://www.historicalboardgaming.com/assets/images/HBG Games/Global Games/1936/Rules/GW1936 Manual Combined.pdf

“Anti-Aircraft: An anti-aircraft gun (AA) fires specifically at aircraft.  It does not Defend facilities from strategic bombing (although facilities have inherent AA guns which function identically to a normal AA gun but do not move). An AA gun rolls one die for each opposing aircraft up to a maximum of three rolls on a hit of 3 or less.  The player suffering the hit chooses which aircraft to remove as casualties and those aircraft make their Attack/Defense rolls as normal. AA guns fire on the first round of combat only. The gun may be taken as a casualty in any round.  Artillery or AA can move two zones when paired 1:1 with motorized infantry.”

[General 6 Stars]

All my games I play are D12. Gives more room to add those extra 30 pieces to game than 40 game. :-D :-D

[GeneralHandGrenade]

There is both air to air combat and self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery in the Amerika game. The way it works is as followed;

1. Phase 1-Anti-aircraft Artillery fires (both sides). Casualties removed.
2. Phase 2-Air combat. Fighters are matched up with fighters, extra fighters can double up or wait and take part Phase 3 (ground combat). Bombers are matched up with bombers, extra bombers can double up or take part in Phase 3.
3. Phase 3-Ground combat. Any aircraft not engaged in Phase 2 joins in the ground combat. Remove casualties. End combat.

Note. Fighters are matched with fighters first and bombers with bombers first, but if one side has more fighters and the other more bombers, then fighters are matched with bombers. On a
D12, fighters hit at 4 and bombers at 2. There are only the 2 types of planes and there is only 1 round of combat.

What I would suggest if you wanted to adapt some type of system like this is that you keep the AAA already in A&A (reduce to 4 IPC) but add SPAA for 5 IPC and only the SPAA could move on combat movement. Or if you wanted just convert them all to SPAA.
First round-AA fire. Remove casualties. Match the fighters with fighters, tacs with tacs, any extra with strats but no strats vs strats. Assign values to them eg. F=2, TB=2, St=1.(or something like that). Remove casualties.
General combat with any leftover aircraft at normal values. Remove casualties.
Second round-back to regular combat. Continue to resolve combat.
I think that you will find that the planes will disappear faster than in an OOB game so be careful what you wish for if you want air to air.

The combat is certainly a lot more interesting in Amerika. General combat has different categories where you can target higher value units with other higher value units or with good rolls. You wouldn’t be able to adapt it to A&A without completely changing the mechanics of the game so if that’s something you wanted to do you may as well invent a new game or go and buy yourself an Amerika game.