I Can't Repair My Battleships!

[KaLeu]

Thank you. At first, I was under the impression that the rule would only pertain to British naval bases. So, just to make sure, I suppose that the damaged British battleship could not be repaired at Hawaii or New Zealand (assuming those territories are in Allied hands). And what about Alaska and the Aleutians, in the somewhat unlikely case of a US naval base there?

[PainState]

Lets just put a bottom line on this discussion.

IF UK Europe falls and London is on fire AND UK Europe still have capital sips alive on the Europe map. What in the heck is the UK player doing? saving the BB and CV for a rainy day?

It is an interesting rules discussion I quess but in the big picture of the game, it is a non factor.

[PainState]

@Herr:

Thank you. At first, I was under the impression that the rule would only pertain to British naval bases. So, just to make sure, I suppose that the damaged British battleship could not be repaired at Hawaii or New Zealand (assuming those territories are in Allied hands). And what about Alaska and the Aleutians, in the somewhat unlikely case of a US naval base there?

Well this hits at the heart of A&A1940.

1940 Europe and Pacific where made as stand alone games.

Then they decided to “bridge” the two games / rule sets into a global game and have global rules at the end of each 2ed rule set. For the die hard players found on the forum it would be nice if “they” could come out with the official 1940 Global rules pack and unify everything into one book.

** the reason this discussion is even happening is that the UK is the one unique major power in the game where they have 2 capitals and thus a split empire. For every other Major power if your capital is lost, naval repair is a mute point.

[Krieghund]

@Herr:

At first, I was under the impression that the rule would only pertain to British naval bases.

That’s correct.

@Herr:

So, just to make sure, I suppose that the damaged British battleship could not be repaired at Hawaii or New Zealand (assuming those territories are in Allied hands). And what about Alaska and the Aleutians, in the somewhat unlikely case of a US naval base there?

Yes, it could be repaired at any non-UK base, anywhere in the world.  It’s only the UK bases that are restricted.

[Panther]

@Krieghund:

@Herr:

At first, I was under the impression that the rule would only pertain to British naval bases.

That’s correct.

@Herr:

So, just to make sure, I suppose that the damaged British battleship could not be repaired at Hawaii or New Zealand (assuming those territories are in Allied hands). And what about Alaska and the Aleutians, in the somewhat unlikely case of a US naval base there?

Yes, it could be repaired at any non-UK base, anywhere in the world.  It’s only the UK bases that are restricted.

So UK is privileged over any other nation?
While every other nation can’t repair anywhere when losing its capital, UK - losing one of its capitals - can repair everywhere around the world (regardless of Europe or Pacific economy/side) except at those restricted (by economy that lost its capital) few British Naval Bases?

[Krieghund]

@P@nther:

So UK is privileged over any other nation?

It’s different, having two economies.

@P@nther:

While every other nation can’t repair anywhere when losing its capital, UK - losing one of its capitals - can repair everywhere around the world (regardless of Europe or Pacific economy/side) except at those restricted (by economy that lost its capital) few British Naval Bases?

Yes, but it’s in the same boat as everyone else if it loses both capitals.

[Panther]

Great, thank you and Herr KaLeun for confirming that / bringing it up.
I have added that to the above summary accordingly.

[simon33]

Wow, this rule is confusing for the UK!

Effectively, Battleships and CVs are UK_Pacific units when on the Pacific board and UK_Europe units when on the Europe map. Is that in the rulebook? Perhaps it is:

@Pac:

Purchase and Repair
Each of United Kingdom Europe and Pacific makes its own separate purchases and repairs.

[Requester45]

In that case you would literally have to track where each of your ships moves for each economy. Example being if the battleship that starts in sz37 on the Pacific map were to move to the Europe side of the board what is the effect on it etc.

[Panther]

@simon33:

Wow, this rule is confusing for the UK!

Effectively, Battleships and CVs are UK_Pacific units when on the Pacific board and UK_Europe units when on the Europe map. Is that in the rulebook? Perhaps it is:

@Pac:

Purchase and Repair
Each of United Kingdom Europe and Pacific makes its own separate purchases and repairs.

@Requester45:

In that case you would literally have to track where each of your ships moves for each economy. Example being if the battleship that starts in sz37 on the Pacific map were to move to the Europe side of the board what is the effect on it etc.

Actually Krieghund’s clarification makes it easier:
As (different from any other power) every damaged British capital ship can be repaired at every allied operative Naval Base (regardless where in the world) as well as at any British Naval Base belonging to the economy that still holds its regional capital.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

No you guys are misunderstanding I think. Basically what he is trying to say is that you can’t repair a UK Capital Ship at a UK naval base on the side of the board where they lost their capital. They can repair it on the other side of the board on a UK naval base or any friendly naval base anywhere in the world. UK units are not tied to their board of origin whatsoever. Only the money is tied to the economy on each side of the board. That’s why you can’t repair it at a UK naval base on the side of the board that has no money. Because the units are not tied to that fallen capital, it can still be repaired at any naval base due to the fact they still have at least one economy to draw on.

Panther explains it quite simply. It’s not rocket science.

[simon33]

@Requester45:

In that case you would literally have to track where each of your ships moves for each economy. Example being if the battleship that starts in sz37 on the Pacific map were to move to the Europe side of the board what is the effect on it etc.

That’s not what I was thinking of. Units belong to the economy that they are in, in the case of the uk.

[KaLeu]

Thanks, Krieghund and P@nther. It’s good to know that it works this way. But, having said that, I can’t really figure out why it works that way.

In the example given:
(a) A non-British base on the Pacific side of the board can repair a British ship, so apparently, the UK repair capacity is unimpaired (we’re assuming that London pays for it);
(b) Also, a British base on the Pacific side of the board can repair a non-British ship, so apparently, the repair capacity of the base itself is also unimpaired.

So while I’d be the last one to challenge the authority of the two of you, I really see no reason for it other than this specific rule.

[Panther]

@Herr:

Thanks, Krieghund and P@nther. It’s good to know that it works this way. But, having said that, I can’t really figure out why it works that way.

In the example given:
(a) A non-British base on the Pacific side of the board can repair a British ship, so apparently, the UK repair capacity is unimpaired (we’re assuming that London pays for it);
(b) Also, a British base on the Pacific side of the board can repair a non-British ship, so apparently, the repair capacity of the base itself is also unimpaired.

Great questions, Herr Kaleun.

Actually the (ship) ‘repair capacity’ of a nation is simply based on the presence of a (UK) / the (other powers) capital and the ‘repair capacity’ of a naval base is exclusively influenced by bombing, no way by the loss of capitals.

When solving the scenario(s) we assume the damaged ship being at a (friendly) operative base.
So it is “only” the presence of a capital (in case of UK) respectively the capital (other powers) that additionally determines the ability to repair.

Hope that helps.
In case your questions go deeper, asking why it is this way and why the ( intact ) repair capacity of the naval bases have not been taken into account when creating the rules, I remember Krieghund saying “It must hurt losing a capital”. I am sure he will comment if there are additional reasons behind it…

[Krieghund]

@GeneralHandGrenade:

No you guys are misunderstanding I think. Basically what he is trying to say is that you can’t repair a UK Capital Ship at a UK naval base on the side of the board where they lost their capital. They can repair it on the other side of the board on a UK naval base or any friendly naval base anywhere in the world. UK units are not tied to their board of origin whatsoever. Only the money is tied to the economy on each side of the board. That’s why you can’t repair it at a UK naval base on the side of the board that has no money. Because the units are not tied to that fallen capital, it can still be repaired at any naval base due to the fact they still have at least one economy to draw on.

Panther explains it quite simply. It’s not rocket science.

Bingo!

[Krieghund]

@ShadowHAwk:

You are contradicting yourself and the rules here.

No, I’m not.  I’ve been saying the same thing all along.  It’s just that people keep misinterpreting it for some reason.

@ShadowHAwk:

If you have lost your capital you skip the purchase and repair steps.
That was you said before and that is also how the devs intended it according to your previous post.
If you skip the step it does not mather where the ships are as you dont get to repair at all.

The rule does not specify where you repair just that you dont get to do purchase and repairs, for the UK this is a bit different as they get to go to the repair step if either side still has its capital. So lets asume that UK lost both capitals. You have a damaged BB it cannot be repaired regardless of where it is in the world, on the other hand the US carrier that is next to british held gibraltar can repair at that naval base.

If we use the rules writen in the rulebook we get to the following rules ( im not typing the whole part ofcourse)

Repairs,
Where : you can repair next to a friendly operational naval base.
When  : during your purchase and repair phase.

You dont get the purchase and repair phase if your capital is in enemy hands.
UK forces belong simultaniously to UK-pac and UK-eu they are not tied to the board or the side that bought them.

So 1 damaged UK battleship off south afrika with london in italian hands.
Is there a purchase and repair phase for the country controling this ship, Yes its UK, UK-pac has a purchase and repair phase.

All true.

@ShadowHAwk:

Is it next to an operational friendly naval base, yes south afrika is not axis and the base has not been bombed.

So by the book you can repair there.

What you’re missing here is a couple of statements on page 35 of the Europe Rulebook (Global Rules):

Each of United Kingdom Europe and Pacific makes its own separate purchases and repairs.

An economy whose capital is held by the Axis can’t collect income, spend IPCs, or repair units.

As a result of these statements, UK capital ships may not be repaired at a naval base that’s part of an economy whose capital is controlled by the Axis.

[Krieghund]

@P@nther:

@Herr:

Thanks, Krieghund and P@nther. It’s good to know that it works this way. But, having said that, I can’t really figure out why it works that way.

In the example given:
(a) A non-British base on the Pacific side of the board can repair a British ship, so apparently, the UK repair capacity is unimpaired (we’re assuming that London pays for it);
(b) Also, a British base on the Pacific side of the board can repair a non-British ship, so apparently, the repair capacity of the base itself is also unimpaired.

Great questions, Herr Kaleun.

Actually the (ship) ‘repair capacity’ of a nation is simply based on the presence of a (UK) / the (other powers) capital and the ‘repair capacity’ of a naval base is exclusively influenced by bombing, no way by the loss of capitals.

When solving the scenario(s) we assume the damaged ship being at a (friendly) operative base.
So it is “only” the presence of a capital (in case of UK) respectively the capital (other powers) that additionally determines the ability to repair.

Hope that helps.
In case your questions go deeper, asking why it is this way and why the ( intact ) repair capacity of the naval bases have not been taken into account when creating the rules, I remember Krieghund saying “It must hurt losing a capital”. I am sure he will comment if there are additional reasons behind it…

The repair of a capital ship requires two things: the physical capacity to repair it (an operative base) and the resources to repair it (an operative economy).  The first requirement may come from any friendly source, but the second must come from the owning power.  This is the reason for the rules as they are.  You may say, “why do I need resources?  It doesn’t cost any IPCs to do the repair.”  We explored the idea of having it cost 1 IPC to repair a damaged sea unit, but Larry didn’t want the IPC expense to influence combat decisions of whether or not to damage capital ships.  The result was a compromise that you can do the repairs for free, but you must still have an operative economy in order to do them.  This implies that there is still some amount of resources being used, but they are too small to account for even 1 IPC.  However, a power (or an economy) with a captured capital generates and spends no IPCs - not even a fraction of one.

In the case of UK, the picture is complicated a bit by its dual economy.  The requirement for the physical repair capacity is the same, but the source of the resources is different.  Per the rules I quoted above, an economy that has a captured capital may not do repairs, and the two economies make their own separate purchases and repairs.  If the repair is being done at an allied naval base, it doesn’t really matter which economy “pays” for it (the units don’t belong to a specific economy once they’re on the board), so this can be done if either capital is free.  However, the rules I quoted prohibit the repair of units by an economy with a captured capital, as well as the use of resources from one UK economy with the facilities of the other, so that rules out repairing at a Europe base using Pacific resources, and vice versa, if either capital is enemy-held.

I hope this helps.

[Requester45]

Great explanation! Thanks for the clarity, I don’t think I have ever come across this specific problem, however it is good to know for future games.

[Panther]

Very interesting background information, thanks Krieghund!

[PainState]

@PainState:

Well lets think about this logically.

USA capital is lost….ALLIES CONCEED
Russian capital is lost…who cares when it comes to ships.
German capital is lost…Axis concede.
Italy capital is lost…who cares, it is Italy.
Japan capital is lost…Axis concede.
ANZAC capital is lost…who?
China is decimated… why do I care?

So all we are left with is the UK.

UK is the only power that by the rules has 2 capitals and two separate economies.

Now lets say that UK Europe falls. UK still has a capital in the far East. At this point is when the debate starts.

Can UK ships only repair on the Pacific map on UK / Allied ports? According to the rules the UK Europe side of the map can only perform Combat moves and non Combat moves BUT the Pacific UK map they can still perform purchase and repair. So, the only free UK repair services can be found on the Pacific map for UK capital ships.

Now lets throw a wrench into this discussion. What happens if a USA capital ship is off the shores of Egypt, UK Europe has fallen BUT Egypt is still in UK hands. Can the USA repair off the UK Egypt port because USA ships can repair in the build and repair phase of their turn? Of course they can because USA ships will pay cold hard cash to the Egyptians to perform the repairs. Plus, by the rules…USA Capital ships can repair on any UK Europe map port as long as the USA capital has not fallen.

SO

IF UK capital ships are on the Pacific map they can be repaired, regardless if the unit was a Europe or Pacific map capital ship. If it is in a Pacific Map Naval port they can be repaired.

Case closed.

:-o

I thought I closed out this discussion with my powers of logic and reading the rule books on page #2?

:-)

:lol: :-D