You are negating the value of giving the Russians FOUR needed attacks on R2 instead of only 3… and having only 2 FIGs (MAYBE 3) available for the attacks. That leaves Russian ART and probably some ARM hanging out on the front, against Germany’s 5 FIGs and BOM…
You start spreading Russia’s initial forces THAT thin, and Germany is going to make some substantial LONG TERM gains, especially with the increased losses of Russian forces going for 4 attacks on R2, and the smaller number of Russians for the Germans to attack in each territory on G2.
If Russia pickets Karelia on R1, Archangel never changes hands ($2 lost to German coffers)
Russia still has only 3 attacks for R2: Karelia, Belo, Ukraine… all of which would STILL be there, PLUS a 4th Archangel attack if you let the German ARM blitz to Archangel.
Also, the picket in Karelia prevents Germany from blitzing Karelia in the first place, which negates one of your advantages above.
In short, Russia is NOT going to abandon Karelia, they SHOULD picket it with 1 INF.
If they do not, then the likely 2 IPC advantage for Germany of running up on the Russian Border with 1 ARM is indeed VERY worthwhile.
You are negating the value of giving the Russians FOUR needed attacks on R2 instead of only 3… and having only 2 FIGs (MAYBE 3) available for the attacks. That leaves Russian ART and probably some ARM hanging out on the front, against Germany’s 5 FIGs and BOM…
True, but also consider the larger picture - Russia is in the habit of using artillery on the front lines. They have 2 of them in W. Russia, and 1-2 in Caucasus. And then there’s 2-3 fighters. They have no trouble of extending to all 4 areas, in which you will only see 0-1 German inf. Germany can’t afford to picket out 2+ inf that early on, and it’s quite easy for the Russians to take out 0-1 inf in all 4 territories. Ukraine is trivial because of the 6 men in Caucasus, and then that means you have that fat W. Russia stack to take out Belo/Karelia, and 6 men in Russia to assign to Archangel. Of course you will not need to assign that many men, but the point is that Russia isn’t struggling to take back the territories; there are plenty of units available.
Also, can Germany afford their figs/bomb on Round 2?
The reason why I ask is because it is not readily apparent as you seem to make it out to be. Usually the German figs are hanging out in W. Europe on G1, in order to give some sort of minimum threat to UK shipping, so that they don’t just land on Norway on UK1. If they are in W. Europe, then it puts them out of position to contest Ukraine/Belo and also land back in W. Europe. Displaced fighters from W. Europe makes it that much easier for the UK/US to move around and land hard.
The German bomber is also likely to be contesting Egypt again on G2.
So really, while there is indeed a potential of 5 fig/1bomb, do not make the potential look as if it has no costs to the Germans. If they do want to use the 5 fig/bomb to trade territories for that one turn, that puts them out of defensive placement in W. Europe.
In short, Russia is NOT going to abandon Karelia, they SHOULD picket it with 1 INF.
I agree, if for different reasons.
I have no problem leaving Kar empty on Russia 1.
Whether I leave it empty or not depends on my losses in Wrus. If I take Wrus w/out loss or lose only 1 inf then I’ll keep the guy in Kar. If I take maybe 2 or more losses I’ll move him to Wrus for added defense and use on R2.
Leaving Karelia open gives the Germans the opportunity to spend 0-1 infantry to take it. If you leave an inf there, they have to stick out 2 inf, which is what you want - the turtle coming out of its shell.
I always leave Karelia open on R1.
If the Germans blitz to Archangel, hurrah, thats a 5 IPC tank mobilized at the front for 2 IPC of territory and 1.5-2 IPC on the retake. Good deal for Russia, especially since the Germans can’t possibly retake Archangel in force.
As far as leaving even 1 infantry in Karelia - well, the Germans have no problem kicking Karelia’s ass. I’d rather save my infantry for when it can make a difference.
Leaving Karelia open gives the Germans the opportunity to spend 0-1 infantry to take it. If you leave an inf there, they have to stick out 2 inf, which is what you want - the turtle coming out of its shell.
That’s why my approach for attacking a territory with 1 Inf in it is 1 Inf + 2 or more Ftrs. Save those Inf until you have a big ball of them.
I always play with the theory that,
“Your best defense, is a damn good Offense!”
Not a foolish offense, but a well calculated strategy, that intices your opponent to stick his neck out, again and again to take out those 3 infantry pickets so you can crush their remnants with rebuilds next turn. makes for a fun game too, Attack, attack, attack! (wait, that’s another game).
But anyway, Germany has to keep the pressure on Russia for as long as possible to help Japans growth. Then Japan can save their butt in the end.
And Ivan that is how I view the ARM blitz to Archangel.
It makes the Russians stick their neck out… in Karelia, Belo and Ukraine. Then I cut that head off, and have Russians shoved back and start trading a territory closer to Moscow.
And Ivan that is how I view the ARM blitz to Archangel.
It makes the Russians stick their neck out… in Karelia, Belo and Ukraine. Then I cut that head off, and have Russians shoved back and start trading a territory closer to Moscow.
I remain unconvinced. Having already shown you how you are in error by your own statistics, it seems that your only remaining argument is about Russian positioning, but I have addressed how Russia isn’t lacking on units in any of those territories. I don’t see how taking out a tank at low cost makes the Russians lose the long term advantage O_o Nor do I see how having to trade 1 extra territory for 1 turn (at good returns for Russia) when you have plenty of units makes a difference.
First: Start with a “traditional” Russian openning of WR and Ukr w/ typical dice.
Then the German counter in Ukraine, and the blitz to Archangel
Combine with a Karelia Stack, and the Med Fleet in SZ15…
Now look at the board at the start of R2…
Do you see it yet?
A good solution to this, if Germany do the “Angel-blitz”, UK can take Archangel.
Peace folks :wink:
I’m a W. Russia/Belorussia opener myself, maybe that’s the difference…
But what if German have still a sub to use as a roadblock in sz5?
UK probably could not invade Norway in second turn, so the blitz of the german unit, finally hurted UK.
And this… for not leaving an inf in Leningrad!
Sending any German navy out to block an Archangel landing is not worth while.
The Archangel Blitz is a simple gambit, designed to get the Russians to over-extend (and thus get spanked by Germany)
It is NOT your spearhead to Russia, it is a thorn, an annoyance.
It is not the move itself that is so essential for Germany, it is how Russia Russia counters that is critical because of the huge potential (especially with so many small battles over such a broad front) of Germany being able to create a major advantage on the Russian Front early, increasing Germany’s IPC’s and decreasing Russian IPCs by pushing the trading territories close to Moscow, and forcing a stronger “close in” defense by Russia
In fact I agree with you Switch. The sub in sz5 is only a speculation that I made.
The reason for such example is that I believe that trading territories is not only a question of IPC and units, is principally a Tactical and Strategic question.
My idea about this specific Karelia issue is to alway leave a inf in Kar.
First this avoid German blitzing in and out, gaining 2 free IPC.
Moreover it do not allow German to blitz a tank to Arkangel.
Finally the situation is reversed: leaving an inf in Karelia is the German that have to use units there (at least 2 inf and 1 fig) and spread out their forces, giving Russia a good start.
I don’t see how going into Karelia is by any means Russia over-extending itself. It’s right next to Russia, very inaccessible to Germany, and is defended once the Allies land in Karelia. I guess it can make Russia spread its forces a little thinner, but Russia can deal with it. It can take it without air support, or the UK can take it, because there’s likely not a lot of German follow-through. At least not in my games - I usually gather everything into EE. I guess you could load Karelia instead, but then farther from Ukraine…
Ultimately, not a big loss for Germany, but I never like to trade an active unit for IPCs (esp. at 5:2) unless I’m also killing an enemy unit.
I never like to lose my Russians to the Germans. Better to use the limeys and keep my good Vodka drinkers in reserve!
I don’t see how going into Karelia is by any means Russia over-extending itself. It’s right next to Russia, very inaccessible to Germany, and is defended once the Allies land in Karelia.
That’s what I see too, Frood. I just don’t see how it’s overextending Russia even if you did Ukraine/W. Russia.
But what if German have still a sub to use as a roadblock in sz5?
UK probably could not invade Norway in second turn, so the blitz of the german unit, finally hurted UK.
Quick grammar lesson Romulus - it should be
“But what if the Germans still have a sub to use as a roadblock in sz5?”
And
“Uk probably can not invade Norway on the second turn, so the blitzing of the German unit hurts the UK.”
I don’t see how going into Karelia is by any means Russia over-extending itself. It’s right next to Russia, very inaccessible to Germany, and is defended once the Allies land in Karelia.
That’s what I see too, Frood. I just don’t see how it’s overextending Russia even if you did Ukraine/W. Russia.
Oops, I meant Archangel, not Karelia, but I think you knew what I meant.
I expected that you would think that I knew what you meant, but I forgot to say that in the previous post by pointing out the Archangel thing. :-o
